RE: 'The toughest, most capable Land Rover ever'
Discussion
NomduJour said:
You genuinely must live in an alternate universe. We moved from Defenders to pickups, like everyone else did (with few exceptions) - more comfortable, more refined, more useable. As for costs - virtually all are leased, so they’ll be chopped in for another one in two or three years in any case. Nobody wants to be constantly patching up something they need for work.
The only reason the sort of pickups popular in the UK have leaf-sprung solid rear axles and basic ladder chassis is because they’re cheaper to build.
Have you saw a livestock farmers pickup after 3 years of use? The only reason the sort of pickups popular in the UK have leaf-sprung solid rear axles and basic ladder chassis is because they’re cheaper to build.
I guarantee only a few are leased, especially in Livestock areas, the manufacturer charges on return from a lease to repair damages such as scrapes and dents would make leasing an uncompetitive method of having a pickup. Most will be on straight forward HP..
Farmers in the UK may be one thing, but whatever you do here you can hardly call it remote.
I have done a lot of remote travel in Africa and in Australia where having a basic, repairable vehicle is essential. There is nothing quite like driving past the sign that tells you there is no petrol for the next 500km and that your survival is entirely in your own hands. I personally would not be relying on a fandangled techno thing from JLR.
People who do live and work in remote areas need vehicles that they can fix on the fly and customise to their own needs. Toyota is king at this game, the 70 series can be bought as a chassis with a cab and pretty much completely customised to whatever you need it to be. It is still ladder chassis and live axle - they kept it this way even though the land cruiser went soft to satisfy school run sorts
I am currently in the market for a fun off-roader that I can also use to drive the 3 miles to the station each day and take bikes to the forest on weekends with the kids, with the occasional overlanding adventure thrown in. My options are exactly a Jeep Wrangler or an old Defender. I am going with a Defender because there is such a strong after market in the UK, even though the Wrangler is many multiples a better vehicle in every aspect that I would need it for
The reason I am not looking at the Discovery is because you can’t do anything with it. You can barely lift it, there is a very limited choice of aftermarket anything. It is fandangled... there is a reason people don’t use them for overlanding :-). I fear exactly the same reasons will apply to the new Defender. Thank heavens for Projekt Ganadier is all I can say
I have done a lot of remote travel in Africa and in Australia where having a basic, repairable vehicle is essential. There is nothing quite like driving past the sign that tells you there is no petrol for the next 500km and that your survival is entirely in your own hands. I personally would not be relying on a fandangled techno thing from JLR.
People who do live and work in remote areas need vehicles that they can fix on the fly and customise to their own needs. Toyota is king at this game, the 70 series can be bought as a chassis with a cab and pretty much completely customised to whatever you need it to be. It is still ladder chassis and live axle - they kept it this way even though the land cruiser went soft to satisfy school run sorts
I am currently in the market for a fun off-roader that I can also use to drive the 3 miles to the station each day and take bikes to the forest on weekends with the kids, with the occasional overlanding adventure thrown in. My options are exactly a Jeep Wrangler or an old Defender. I am going with a Defender because there is such a strong after market in the UK, even though the Wrangler is many multiples a better vehicle in every aspect that I would need it for
The reason I am not looking at the Discovery is because you can’t do anything with it. You can barely lift it, there is a very limited choice of aftermarket anything. It is fandangled... there is a reason people don’t use them for overlanding :-). I fear exactly the same reasons will apply to the new Defender. Thank heavens for Projekt Ganadier is all I can say
Hopefully someone will manufacture and market a round headlamp conversion kit to keep the traditionalists happy.
As per many comments in this thread though, a new fancy electronic monocoque Defender replacement isn't going to win many long battles with the Outback or Savannah, where basic tools and a a stick welder are all you can use to get yourself going again.
Mummies on the school run will probably just call the AA or RAC.
As per many comments in this thread though, a new fancy electronic monocoque Defender replacement isn't going to win many long battles with the Outback or Savannah, where basic tools and a a stick welder are all you can use to get yourself going again.
Mummies on the school run will probably just call the AA or RAC.
‘with the occasional overlanding adventure thrown in’
The the key part. Everything else can be done with almost any conventional car.
Africans also generally get by very well with any old normal car. It’s only really corporate, charitable, liesure visitors and a few affluent residents who use modern, ‘luxury’ 4x4s. But that’s still very much a scenario driven by economics. Look to any part of Africa where the resources are not being flogged cheap to 1st world corporates, the government is not sending all its peoples wealth to private Swiss banks accounts and you’ll find the locals buying luxury SUBs because they can.
I would say that anyone wanting a vehicle that is capable of the occasional overlanding adventure will not be buying Range Rovers, X5s, Q7s, Bentaygas or any modern SUV but that such consumers represent such a tiny and commercially insignificant demand that there simply isn’t any business case for developing a premium, medium volume road car for them.
What their true importance is is their need for something that as you say, isn’t loaded up with tech or tied in to high end servicing costs which is why the original Defenders will be kept going for decades to come. Although the more logical LR product for your needs is an earlier Disco as 99% of your usage is commuting to the station and taking your kids out for the weekend and something like a Disco 2 is more comfortable, safer, infinitely better on road and just as good off-road.
The the key part. Everything else can be done with almost any conventional car.
Africans also generally get by very well with any old normal car. It’s only really corporate, charitable, liesure visitors and a few affluent residents who use modern, ‘luxury’ 4x4s. But that’s still very much a scenario driven by economics. Look to any part of Africa where the resources are not being flogged cheap to 1st world corporates, the government is not sending all its peoples wealth to private Swiss banks accounts and you’ll find the locals buying luxury SUBs because they can.
I would say that anyone wanting a vehicle that is capable of the occasional overlanding adventure will not be buying Range Rovers, X5s, Q7s, Bentaygas or any modern SUV but that such consumers represent such a tiny and commercially insignificant demand that there simply isn’t any business case for developing a premium, medium volume road car for them.
What their true importance is is their need for something that as you say, isn’t loaded up with tech or tied in to high end servicing costs which is why the original Defenders will be kept going for decades to come. Although the more logical LR product for your needs is an earlier Disco as 99% of your usage is commuting to the station and taking your kids out for the weekend and something like a Disco 2 is more comfortable, safer, infinitely better on road and just as good off-road.
It must just be me who watches that video and thinks how incongruent that Land Rover looks in the wilds of Africa?
I don't think they could have picked a better example for showing just how heavy and cumbersome the new vehicle looks compared to lightweight, canvass backed originals bouncing around all over the place.
I can quite imagine the guy with the gun daintily reaching down in gloved hand to toggle a small switch between finger and thumb to the sound of the LR bongs as the suspension lowers...
I'm not hating on it, I think it looks great. As a current Discovery owner I am the target market and the want is strong, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't.
I don't think they could have picked a better example for showing just how heavy and cumbersome the new vehicle looks compared to lightweight, canvass backed originals bouncing around all over the place.
I can quite imagine the guy with the gun daintily reaching down in gloved hand to toggle a small switch between finger and thumb to the sound of the LR bongs as the suspension lowers...
I'm not hating on it, I think it looks great. As a current Discovery owner I am the target market and the want is strong, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't.
I've seen undisguised pics of this, it is going to a monoque, electronic-fest, alpine windowed pastiche of the original defender...it reminded me of a round headlight Kia Soul on steroids tbh. Very much disco4+. Forget your namibian off road adventures (minus a support crew and sat-phone) and fix it with a hammer and welder.
That being said if built well....I think it will be successful on brand image and pseudo swiss army knife vibe....completely cannibalising the Disco 5, which has been range-rover-ised to the point of irrelevance.
With the state of JLR.. flatlining after the withdrawal of the opium of fat Chinese profits they are really crashing this programme to get this thing launched asap which can only bode well for the development drivers aka first edition customers :-)
I suspect Project Grenadier could cause it and JLR some major problems if it brings a fresh perspective to the lux utility sector. JLR is dependent on high margin vehicles, in their corporate pysche this comes from Range Rover so everything has gone upmarket whether the customers want it or not...
I still believe the Corporate Strategy text book case history is awaiting JLR unless they alter course. Alongside Nokia and M&S. We'll see.
That being said if built well....I think it will be successful on brand image and pseudo swiss army knife vibe....completely cannibalising the Disco 5, which has been range-rover-ised to the point of irrelevance.
With the state of JLR.. flatlining after the withdrawal of the opium of fat Chinese profits they are really crashing this programme to get this thing launched asap which can only bode well for the development drivers aka first edition customers :-)
I suspect Project Grenadier could cause it and JLR some major problems if it brings a fresh perspective to the lux utility sector. JLR is dependent on high margin vehicles, in their corporate pysche this comes from Range Rover so everything has gone upmarket whether the customers want it or not...
I still believe the Corporate Strategy text book case history is awaiting JLR unless they alter course. Alongside Nokia and M&S. We'll see.
NomduJour said:
Who exactly is Project Grenadier going to appeal to? The Japanese pickups (whether bargain-basement developing world spec or Rambo x Katie Price UK spec) have it sewn up.
It’ll be the chariot of choice for any discerning English gentleman seeking to deliver a military coup in Africa as means to escaping the school holiday chores. NomduJour said:
Who exactly is Project Grenadier going to appeal to?
It appeals to the people currently knocking round in old Defenders. Unfortunately, most of those people don't have enough money to actually buy a new car.......(hence the reason JLR have dropped that market for one far more profitable)
But clearly that is not the case. Jeep manage to sell 250k wranglers per year and demand typically outstrips supply. There is a massive market for “fun off-roaders” in the world, ones with ladder chassis and live axles, just not s
t, unreliable ones that rust
JLR simply has not listened to what customers have been asking for and failed to invest in the platform over the decades. Totally deviating from initial spec isn’t going to help
t, unreliable ones that rustJLR simply has not listened to what customers have been asking for and failed to invest in the platform over the decades. Totally deviating from initial spec isn’t going to help
Max_Torque said:
It appeals to the people currently knocking round in old Defenders. Unfortunately, most of those people don't have enough money to actually buy a new car.......
Ah, you mean the Land Rover experts who have never, and will never, buy a new Land Rover, and who also don’t live in the bush/Outback/on the Moon or use their vehicle for some non-specific “work” where it has to climb over giant boulders 500 miles from the nearest settlement on the commute and be fixed by a native whose toolkit contains only a welder and a lump hammer (but not forgetting the pressure washer for the seats and dashboard)? Max_Torque said:
It appeals to the people currently knocking round in old Defenders. Unfortunately, most of those people don't have enough money to actually buy a new car.......
(hence the reason JLR have dropped that market for one far more profitable)
b(hence the reason JLR have dropped that market for one far more profitable)
ks... but you already know thatDonkeyApple said:
NomduJour said:
Who exactly is Project Grenadier going to appeal to? The Japanese pickups (whether bargain-basement developing world spec or Rambo x Katie Price UK spec) have it sewn up.
It’ll be the chariot of choice for any discerning English gentleman seeking to deliver a military coup in Africa as means to escaping the school holiday chores. skyrover said:
Max_Torque said:
It appeals to the people currently knocking round in old Defenders. Unfortunately, most of those people don't have enough money to actually buy a new car.......
(hence the reason JLR have dropped that market for one far more profitable)
b(hence the reason JLR have dropped that market for one far more profitable)
ks... but you already know thatGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff