RE: Pontiac Firebird: Spotted
Discussion
FIREBIRDC9 said:
For pre-war cars especially, i expect the market will tank.
I don't know any people my age interested in pre war cars and i can't see this changing.
(When i say pre-war i don't mean high end stuff. I mean little Austins and Model T's)
There are some pre-war cars that younger people are interested in the UK. Yes, its not a huge number, but you'd be surprised at the number of under 50's in the UK that own old American Fords from the years 1928-1942. Granted not many of them are 100% standard..... I don't know any people my age interested in pre war cars and i can't see this changing.
(When i say pre-war i don't mean high end stuff. I mean little Austins and Model T's)
And as regards little pre-war Austins and the like, well, go to a trials event rather than a car show and you'll be surprised at many 'younger' people enjoy actually using these sort of cars in anger rather than the spit and polish, widget counting brigade
For example.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSDQ4BcIiWc
Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 14th May 11:52
FIREBIRDC9 said:
J4CKO said:
I have had similar thoughts about certain old cars, they will have peaks and troughs as demand rises and falls for them based o a lot of factors, mk1 and 2 Escorts have gone daft price wise as all the guys who had or wanted one are older and richer, trouble is, younger folk get the big via stuff like Fast and Furiosu films, or Xbox games.
Most original E Type owners are probably dead now but they aren’t giving those away
Just the other day i was at a small show in BasingstokeMost original E Type owners are probably dead now but they aren’t giving those away
There was a pre-war section.
Chatted with my friend about them, every single pre-war car was owned by older men.
No young ones!
For pre-war cars especially, i expect the market will tank.
I don't know any people my age interested in pre war cars and i can't see this changing.
(When i say pre-war i don't mean high end stuff. I mean little Austins and Model T's)
Its an interesting thought.
I mentioned Escorts specifically and Aeropilot picked up on the historic rallying thing but all old Fords seem to have a following , I think markets will warm up and cool down but cant imagine most classics going massively down in value, probably more than the value will plateau, which over time I guess is it devaluing slowly if that is the case.
So many variables, hard to predict, interest rates being crap helps the classic car world, values go up, previously unviable cars get restored, who would be spending ten grand on renovating a Capri injection 15 years ago, they were available for £1000 or so.
Gus265 said:
5 litre V8 and only 150bhp - that is amazing! I genuinely laughed out loud when I read that! Good job it’s a manual - I’m not sure the auto version would make it up the very gentle incline outside my house!
Always loved Bandit’s Trans Am.
150hp and probably near to 300ft lb of torque. Plus loads of relatively cheap and easy ways to up the power.Always loved Bandit’s Trans Am.
Whereas in the UK most "sporty" cars of a similar era where more like 80-110hp and often only marginally better specific output and a lot lot less torque. And less tunability.
300bhp/ton said:
150hp and probably near to 300ft lb of torque. Plus loads of relatively cheap and easy ways to up the power.
Whereas in the UK most "sporty" cars of a similar era where more like 80-110hp and often only marginally better specific output and a lot lot less torque. And less tunability.
240, if it was the LG4 SBC.Whereas in the UK most "sporty" cars of a similar era where more like 80-110hp and often only marginally better specific output and a lot lot less torque. And less tunability.
300bhp/ton said:
AmosMoses said:
Mr E said:
Didn’t they turbocharge these at some point?
Yes they did and it had a whopping 210bhp 
XMified said:
s m said:
MuscleSaloon said:
s m said:
One of these for me instead
The bull-nose cars are much nicer IMO and I have a soft spot for the shovel-nose cars up to '74 before they enlarged the rear window.Regarding the power figures - sure they looked grim through the worst times after the muscle years - but look at your average UK car of the same era. I've seen 1.6 OHC Fords with the VV carb putting down about 50bhp on the rollers - and people thought they were brilliant !
Proper muscle car to end the era
60mph in 5.4
13.8 second quarter
Andy83n said:
Jimmy Recard said:
Is it amazing?
What would you expect from that era with US emissions controls?
In 1976 a US-spec XJ12 would’ve only had about 240 horsepower, and I’m guessing that would’ve been Jaguar’s claim for gross power, while Pontiac quoted net.
Other way round.What would you expect from that era with US emissions controls?
In 1976 a US-spec XJ12 would’ve only had about 240 horsepower, and I’m guessing that would’ve been Jaguar’s claim for gross power, while Pontiac quoted net.
US cars tend to quote BHP at the crank, not at the wheels
In the USA pre 1973 they used to quote SAE Gross HP. Which was an actual measured power level on a bare bones and prepped engine, no ancillary devices and optimum conditions. Post 1973 they used SAE Net which means the engine has to be much more like the spec in the car, i.e. with an exhaust, water pump, alternator etc. It also dictated air density and altitude and had correction factors to use if these weren't met. A much more realistic figure and still measured and not all that different from today.
In the UK in the 1970's and earlier it was much more practice to simply guess or make up the power figure. This was also common across Europe.
FIREBIRDC9 said:
s m said:
Three different flavours of ‘bird
Have i misunderstood this?Firebird Trans AM , Estimated top speed 115mph?
Seems a tad low....
Also i didn't realise that the Formula was the more expensive variant, more powerful too apparently?
Low gearing and only 4 gears, means good acceleration and low tops speed. Remember, in that day and age the USA had a blanket 55mph speed limit. Top speeds were often not even mentioned or quoted in many road tests or manufacture figures.
BathyThermo said:
300bhp/ton said:
AmosMoses said:
Mr E said:
Didn’t they turbocharge these at some point?
Yes they did and it had a whopping 210bhp And not if meeting US emissions. The Capri was sold in America as the Mercury Capri and was also available with the 2.8 Cologne V6 engine. In US trim it made 90-115bhp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_Capri
300bhp/ton said:
BathyThermo said:
300bhp/ton said:
AmosMoses said:
Mr E said:
Didn’t they turbocharge these at some point?
Yes they did and it had a whopping 210bhp And not if meeting US emissions. The Capri was sold in America as the Mercury Capri and was also available with the 2.8 Cologne V6 engine. In US trim it made 90-115bhp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_Capri
BathyThermo said:
So, really nothing like twice the power as you stated earlier?
Capri was hardly the only performance car in the UK. Man you really are hard work and appear to have no concept of 'figure of speech' For example, the Firebird was more pitched at the same segment/market/buyer as the XR3 was in the UK. In 1980 the XR3 had 96bhp and 97ft lb.
Ok so maybe not half the power of the Firebird, but not all that far off and a lot less than half the torque.
The MGB in US trim made 78hp in 1972, I can't find a latter figure, but suspect the last of the line models made even less. Which really is about half the power of the Firebird.
BathyThermo said:
300bhp/ton said:
BathyThermo said:
300bhp/ton said:
AmosMoses said:
Mr E said:
Didn’t they turbocharge these at some point?
Yes they did and it had a whopping 210bhp And not if meeting US emissions. The Capri was sold in America as the Mercury Capri and was also available with the 2.8 Cologne V6 engine. In US trim it made 90-115bhp.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_Capri
300bhp/ton said:
Capri was hardly the only performance car in the UK. Man you really are hard work and appear to have no concept of 'figure of speech'
For example, the Firebird was more pitched at the same segment/market/buyer as the XR3 was in the UK. In 1980 the XR3 had 96bhp and 97ft lb.
Ok so maybe not half the power of the Firebird, but not all that far off and a lot less than half the torque.
The MGB in US trim made 78hp in 1972, I can't find a latter figure, but suspect the last of the line models made even less. Which really is about half the power of the Firebird.
The same segment market? The MGB? You're comparing the 1.8L MGB to this 5.0L Pontiac, then making the point that one is significantly less powerful than the other?For example, the Firebird was more pitched at the same segment/market/buyer as the XR3 was in the UK. In 1980 the XR3 had 96bhp and 97ft lb.
Ok so maybe not half the power of the Firebird, but not all that far off and a lot less than half the torque.
The MGB in US trim made 78hp in 1972, I can't find a latter figure, but suspect the last of the line models made even less. Which really is about half the power of the Firebird.
300bhp/ton said:
BTW 210hp is in deed over twice the power of 90hp
It is, yes, however the 90bhp is another American car. You were comparing to British cars. A British contemporary would indeed be the Capri, which could be had with over 200bhp if you so desired. Yes, it's hardly the only British car, it's merely a single example, that makes the point very well.You're good at shifting goalposts, I'll give you that.
You turned it from "Twice as much power as anything European" to "Twice as much as the American version of the single European car I'm berating you for choosing, as it f
ks my point" 300bhp/ton said:
BathyThermo said:
So, really nothing like twice the power as you stated earlier?
Capri was hardly the only performance car in the UK. Man you really are hard work and appear to have no concept of 'figure of speech' For example, the Firebird was more pitched at the same segment/market/buyer as the XR3 was in the UK. In 1980 the XR3 had 96bhp and 97ft lb.
Ok so maybe not half the power of the Firebird, but not all that far off and a lot less than half the torque.
The MGB in US trim made 78hp in 1972, I can't find a latter figure, but suspect the last of the line models made even less. Which really is about half the power of the Firebird.
The pecking order was pretty simple, 1.1 < 1.3 < 1.6 < 2.0 < 3.0 etc etc, and then you added on the trim level L < GL < Ghia etc.
Because pretty much all engines were N/A 4 and 6 cylinder ones, with the odd V8 I get the impression most people didnt know beyond that, and it generally didnt matter as a carb fed 2.0 4 cyl, 8 valve engine in a sensible, tractable state of tune for a passenger card made around 100 bhp, am sure there are exceptions but that is how it was. A Cortina 1.6 litre was similar in performance to say a Talbot whatsit 1.6, Hillman Hunter 1.6 or Cavalier 1.6.
very few cars had four valves per cylinder, almost none had a turbo aside from the odd Saab and maybe the BMW 2002, both of which were pretty niche cars in a sea of Fords and Vauxhalls.
So, in a sea of dreary stuff like that, a 5 plus litre V8 seemed very exotic and fast back then, if you were used to 14 seconds to sixty and 70 ish bhp being beaten to death, the surge and noise of a V8, even if it wasnt really that fast would feel like all the power in the world, torque was in short supply for most drivers back then, unless you had a V8 Rover or a Jag of some description you werent used to it.
Only think I can think of that would feel a lot faster that mortals would possibly have got their hands on was a V12 Jag and they werent that cheap, same as say a Stag with its V8, they were properly upmarket motors, remember staying in a hotel in about 1978 and there was a Blue Stag in the Car park and it was very impressive, an XJS was either someone very posh, or Roger Moore.
BathyThermo said:
It is, yes, however the 90bhp is another American car. You were comparing to British cars. A British contemporary would indeed be the Capri, which could be had with over 200bhp if you so desired. Yes, it's hardly the only British car, it's merely a single example, that makes the point very well.
You're good at shifting goalposts, I'll give you that.
You turned it from "Twice as much power as anything European" to "Twice as much as the American version of the single European car I'm berating you for choosing, as it fks my point"
I think you are the only one shifting goal posts and not just this thread. As said, you are hard work.You're good at shifting goalposts, I'll give you that.
You turned it from "Twice as much power as anything European" to "Twice as much as the American version of the single European car I'm berating you for choosing, as it f
ks my point" What 1980 Capri had over 200hp and cost anything close to the MSRP of the Firebird????
And yes the entire point of saying a 5.0 litre made more than a 1.8 is EXACTLY the point. It doesn't really matter what the specific output of the engine was, it still as a rule made a heck of a lot more power than other similar sector/priced vehicles did.
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