How many niches is too many?

[Benmac]

rockin said:

Lotus Elise,

111S
111R
340R
Cup220
Cup230
Cup250
Cup260
Sprint
Sport 190
Sport 160
Sport 135R
Lotus Sport 111
Type 23
50th Anniversary Edition
60th Anniversary Edition
Jim Clark Type 25
Type 25
Type 49
Type 72
Type 79
Type 99T
Sports Racer
Race Tech
Club Racer
California Edition
Purist Edition
Final Edition
Roger Becker SC

Erm, they're models, trim levels and special editions of the same car that weren't all on sale at the same time. Lotus' naming and speccing policy is indeed bloody silly and seemingly designed to ps off buyers but isn't this more about manufacturers having a plethora of different individual models with some that are very similar such as the X4 and X6 above or in Mercedes case perhaps the CLS and the AMG GT 4 door thingy?

[SidewaysSi]

Benmac said:

rockin said:

Lotus Elise,

111S
111R
340R
Cup220
Cup230
Cup250
Cup260
Sprint
Sport 190
Sport 160
Sport 135R
Lotus Sport 111
Type 23
50th Anniversary Edition
60th Anniversary Edition
Jim Clark Type 25
Type 25
Type 49
Type 72
Type 79
Type 99T
Sports Racer
Race Tech
Club Racer
California Edition
Purist Edition
Final Edition
Roger Becker SC

Erm, they're models, trim levels and special editions of the same car that weren't all on sale at the same time. Lotus' naming and speccing policy is indeed bloody silly and seemingly designed to ps off buyers but isn't this more about manufacturers having a plethora of different individual models with some that are very similar such as the X4 and X6 above or in Mercedes case perhaps the CLS and the AMG GT 4 door thingy?

Shhh....of course it makes no sense but he always knocks Lotus as he bought a stbox Boxster. The amount of money he has lost keeps him awake at night so he mumbles bks on the Internet to make him feel better...

[anonymous-user]

Benmac said:

Erm, they're models, trim levels and special editions of the same car that weren't all on sale at the same time. Lotus' naming and speccing policy is indeed bloody silly and seemingly designed to ps off buyers but isn't this more about manufacturers having a plethora of different individual models with some that are very similar such as the X4 and X6 above or in Mercedes case perhaps the CLS and the AMG GT 4 door thingy?

Fair point, although we have to remember Exige is an Elise coupe - with removable roof - and Europa was also an Elise coupe - with a Vauxhall engine.

Equally I'm not sure people who splash big cash on an AMG C63 really want to be reminded they own a variant of the base Merc driven by Clive in accounts!

[kambites]

Yes actual variants of the Elise in the sense meant here would be.

S1:
Elise
340R
Exige

S2:
Elise
Exige
211

S3:
Elise
Exige
311

Plus a few platform shared cars like the Tesla Roadster and VX220.

So broadly the same three models per series albeit with a change in name for the silly version.

[anonymous-user]

GroundEffect said:

Second Best said:

I think that what a lot of manufacturers forget (particularly the Germans offering more letters than there are in the alphabet), is that by diluting the brand so much, they forego long-term and/or more affluent customers, in exchange for a "quick win". Yes, it's great to get Zara and Shardonnay to buy an X1 114i GT M-sport Ecobks instead of a Mokka, but when they have to service it or find out they've lost £15k in a few years, they'll never buy one again, and tell their other mates that BMW are st because they cost too much.

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

[anonymous-user]

swamp said:

Premium manufacturers produce niche cars because they can increases sales without damaging their brand.

Merc last 3 years in uk have had stable sales, no increases.

The problem is with the Germans, that there brand extension is being stretched massively into these niches.

There must be limits though, a point at which the product offering becomes crowded or target customer groups overlap and return on investment for new models starts to decline.

At some point, the brand image is changed if you have moved too far from the core or traditional product strengths.

[MGirl]

pits said:

BMW have to be as bad if not worse, even from a rough idea
1 series hatch
1 series awful minivan thing
X1

You know a brand has too many vehicles to choose from when the 2 Series Active Tourer (the fwd monstrosity) is quoted as the 1 series awful minivan thing

[swisstoni]

I not sure what the problem is tbh.

[SimonTheSailor]

If there are that many, are they niches ?

[glazbagun]

I reckon it's down to having stonking great automated factories that run really lean and is the end goal of shared architecture. From any colour you want, so long as it's black to any car you want so long as it has an engine that doesn't emit too much CO2.

Sadly, despite seemingly anything you want so long as it's in overweight SUV form, it appears that GT-86 with more power is an insane proposition that noone will order.

[Pit Pony]

glazbagun said:

I reckon it's down to having stonking great automated factories that run really lean and is the end goal of shared architecture. From any colour you want, so long as it's black to any car you want so long as it has an engine that doesn't emit too much CO2.

Sadly, despite seemingly anything you want so long as it's in overweight SUV form, it appears that GT-86 with more power is an insane proposition that noone will order.

The expensive things in the introduction of cars was the cost of the tooling. Tooling wears out, so the trick is to find a way of making the tooling last one facelift. What you don't want is a body shell that is dated but the tooling isn't worn out.
BMW are global, so if they can amatize the tooling costs over smaller sales in each market
for that model but in more markets then they may as well.

[Pommy]

Timely thread - Volvo here in Australia announcing a trim of their range as they reckin too much choice confuses consumers - worth a read:

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volv...

[jwilliamsm3]

Fair point on the niches, i agree there's a lot. BMW surely don't sell many 3 series or 5 series GT's but they still make them. Now tell me why they don't make a touring M3 or M5, when Audi sell a shed load of performance estates, and that's their main rival.
Fair enough if the cooking touring models didn't sell well, but i see plenty of performance 335d/340i/535d tourings.

[Second Best]

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

I don't think I'm any better or worse than anybody else when I like to get my money's worth out of a car. A cheaper version of a car devalues the better-specced ones by simple supply and demand. Offer the same vehicle with a crap engine, and some people will buy it because they just want to say they drive an F-Type.

If that car wasn't available, then those people wouldn't have bought an F-Type. Plus, when they inevitably fail to look after it and their finance agreement's up, that car's on the market for 1/3rd of what it cost new. So, to adjust for the cheap cars, the better-specced ones fall in price to stay competitive.

I don't think there's anything snobbish about wanting to keep performance cars seperate from everyday runabouts. Look at the way the AMG, ///M and S-line brands are being devalued by festooning badges on everything with a diesel engine. Is that the intent of the AMG, M or Audi Sport divisions?

I have no problems with cooking spec cars being made more desireable. However it's a bit of a kick in the nuts to petrolheads when the cars they've bought, at expense, are drawn into the same category as your average non-enthusiast to make more sales.

Just go ask the Porsche forum about their thoughts on the 4-cylinder 718 and see how it goes down.

[Sheepshanks]

Second Best said:

If that car wasn't available, then those people wouldn't have bought an F-Type. Plus, when they inevitably fail to look after it and their finance agreement's up, that car's on the market for 1/3rd of what it cost new. So, to adjust for the cheap cars, the better-specced ones fall in price to stay competitive.

That's got to be an issue if people do look at the whole-life cost of buying the expensive version of a model with a wide price spead, even more so if they bump up the cost with options.

[Plate spinner]

Second Best said:

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

Not trolling, but I don’t get this.
So long as they make a model that’s right for you, why do you care that they make another model that’s not right for you but is right for others?
This thinking seems a bit ‘cut nose off to spite face’.

[Lindun]

rockandrollmark said:

I saw an X6 and a similar coloured X4 parked up alongside each other the other day, and I’m not exaggerating when I say I could barely work out anything that differentiated the two.

You could argue that about most cars across all manufacturers and their cousins in the range. Size is the main one.

The Huracan and Aventador are indistinguishable for me to take an extreme example from the top end of the market.

[monkfish1]

Second Best said:

If that car wasn't available, then those people wouldn't have bought an F-Type.

And there is the reason for its existence. Jaguar have now sold MORE cars as a consequence. Which is what they are there for.

[E65Ross]

A car is a niche too far when that car doesn't sell. If it sells, then it's not a problem.

I think some people think having a wider variety of choice is a bad thing.

[GroundEffect]

Second Best said:

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

I don't think I'm any better or worse than anybody else when I like to get my money's worth out of a car. A cheaper version of a car devalues the better-specced ones by simple supply and demand. Offer the same vehicle with a crap engine, and some people will buy it because they just want to say they drive an F-Type.

If that car wasn't available, then those people wouldn't have bought an F-Type. Plus, when they inevitably fail to look after it and their finance agreement's up, that car's on the market for 1/3rd of what it cost new. So, to adjust for the cheap cars, the better-specced ones fall in price to stay competitive.

I don't think there's anything snobbish about wanting to keep performance cars seperate from everyday runabouts. Look at the way the AMG, ///M and S-line brands are being devalued by festooning badges on everything with a diesel engine. Is that the intent of the AMG, M or Audi Sport divisions?

I have no problems with cooking spec cars being made more desireable. However it's a bit of a kick in the nuts to petrolheads when the cars they've bought, at expense, are drawn into the same category as your average non-enthusiast to make more sales.

Just go ask the Porsche forum about their thoughts on the 4-cylinder 718 and see how it goes down.

The 718 argument is not valid since it wasn't cheaper. It was done because the brand needed to go turbocharged for CO2. And they went for I4 because 500cc per cylinder is the optimum. Going for a sub 3 litre 6 cylinder didn't make sense.