How many niches is too many?

[anonymous-user]

GroundEffect said:

The 718 argument is not valid since it wasn't cheaper. It was done because the brand needed to go turbocharged for CO2. And they went for I4 because 500cc per cylinder is the optimum. Going for a sub 3 litre 6 cylinder didn't make sense.

^^^ This. I don't think Porsche will abandon the 4-pot turbo. Instead they seem to be deliberately overlapping the Boxster/Cayman and 911 ranges.

If you want to spend the money for "6-pot Porsche performance" you'll be able to buy it in either shape car for more or less the same high price. Entry cars will remain 4-pot.

[Wooda80]

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

Second Best said:

I think that what a lot of manufacturers forget (particularly the Germans offering more letters than there are in the alphabet), is that by diluting the brand so much, they forego long-term and/or more affluent customers, in exchange for a "quick win". Yes, it's great to get Zara and Shardonnay to buy an X1 114i GT M-sport Ecobks instead of a Mokka, but when they have to service it or find out they've lost £15k in a few years, they'll never buy one again, and tell their other mates that BMW are st because they cost too much.

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

Yh it's weird, 4 cylinder auto F-Type is only £4000 or so less than a V6 auto. Cheapest 911 is about half the price of the Turbo S but doesn't seem to bother Turbo S buyers, nor does the existence of a basic version seem to put off buyers of RS / M / AMG buyers. Can remember Mercedes SL having a spread of nearly 200% between top and bottom not so long ago.

All seems a bit Terry & June / Hyacinth Bouquet / suburban net-curtain twitching / golf club/ key to the executive wash room to me

[Plate spinner]

Wooda80 said:

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

Second Best said:

I think that what a lot of manufacturers forget (particularly the Germans offering more letters than there are in the alphabet), is that by diluting the brand so much, they forego long-term and/or more affluent customers, in exchange for a "quick win". Yes, it's great to get Zara and Shardonnay to buy an X1 114i GT M-sport Ecobks instead of a Mokka, but when they have to service it or find out they've lost £15k in a few years, they'll never buy one again, and tell their other mates that BMW are st because they cost too much.

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

Yh it's weird, 4 cylinder auto F-Type is only £4000 or so less than a V6 auto. Cheapest 911 is about half the price of the Turbo S but doesn't seem to bother Turbo S buyers, nor does the existence of a basic version seem to put off buyers of RS / M / AMG buyers. Can remember Mercedes SL having a spread of nearly 200% between top and bottom not so long ago.

All seems a bit Terry & June / Hyacinth Bouquet / suburban net-curtain twitching / golf club/ key to the executive wash room to me

Inclined to agree, most peculiar.

[DoYouEvenBoost]

Plate spinner said:

Wooda80 said:

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

Second Best said:

I think that what a lot of manufacturers forget (particularly the Germans offering more letters than there are in the alphabet), is that by diluting the brand so much, they forego long-term and/or more affluent customers, in exchange for a "quick win". Yes, it's great to get Zara and Shardonnay to buy an X1 114i GT M-sport Ecobks instead of a Mokka, but when they have to service it or find out they've lost £15k in a few years, they'll never buy one again, and tell their other mates that BMW are st because they cost too much.

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

Yh it's weird, 4 cylinder auto F-Type is only £4000 or so less than a V6 auto. Cheapest 911 is about half the price of the Turbo S but doesn't seem to bother Turbo S buyers, nor does the existence of a basic version seem to put off buyers of RS / M / AMG buyers. Can remember Mercedes SL having a spread of nearly 200% between top and bottom not so long ago.

All seems a bit Terry & June / Hyacinth Bouquet / suburban net-curtain twitching / golf club/ key to the executive wash room to me

Inclined to agree, most peculiar.

Considering a 4 pot F Type is a fairly logical car/niche to fill as well. Some people want a good looking convertible to cruise around in and aren't bothered about power output,which the 4 pot is perfect for. It slots right into the groove the SLK200 carved out, albeit asking a bit more money.

[catso]

Sorry, read the title as 'inches'...

[Shakermaker]

rockandrollmark said:

This seems to be a trend across the industry. I could choose many, but Merc seem to be the worst culprit...

Mercedes-Benz Line-up c. 1989

• 190E
• E-Class Saloon | Coupe | Convertible
• S-Class Saloon | LWB Saloon | Coupe
• SL
• G-Wagen

Today's line-up (2019)

• A-Class
• CLA | Coupe | Shooting Brake
• GLA
• B-Class
• C-Class Saloon | Estate | Coupe | Convertible
• GLC
• E-Class Saloon | Estate (plus an MG Streetwise-inspired plastic clad variant) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLE
• CLS (...no shooting brake, yes)
• S-Class Saloon (plus a Maybach variants, including a LWB land-yacht) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLS
• G-Class
• X-Class (...Navara with posh seats)
• V-Class (...Vito with carpet)
• SLC
• SL
• AMG GT
• ...and the new ECQ Electric thing

I make that 29.5 body styles! :

Ahem..

Citan - van, minicab thing
Vito - van, minibus, taxi
Sprinter -SWB, LWB, hi top, low top, medium top, dropside, chassis cab, luton, tipper, minibus

Citaro
Tourismo
OC 500 (granted that's just a chassis for others to put a body on top of)

Actros: Actros SLT
Arocs: Arocs SLT
Unimog U216 - U4023
Atego
Econic

[Gojira]

Plate spinner said:

Second Best said:

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

Not trolling, but I don’t get this.
So long as they make a model that’s right for you, why do you care that they make another model that’s not right for you but is right for others?
This thinking seems a bit ‘cut nose off to spite face’.

I wonder what he thinks of me, with the engine that upsets him so much in a grandad-spec XE with all the toys?

Am I lowering the tone of the brand too

[SpeckledJim]

DoYouEvenBoost said:

Plate spinner said:

Wooda80 said:

cb1965 said:

GroundEffect said:

Second Best said:

I think that what a lot of manufacturers forget (particularly the Germans offering more letters than there are in the alphabet), is that by diluting the brand so much, they forego long-term and/or more affluent customers, in exchange for a "quick win". Yes, it's great to get Zara and Shardonnay to buy an X1 114i GT M-sport Ecobks instead of a Mokka, but when they have to service it or find out they've lost £15k in a few years, they'll never buy one again, and tell their other mates that BMW are st because they cost too much.

Plus those who used to buy the posher versions probably won't appreciate every humdrum PCP car looking identical to the one they've saved up for. I'm in this group - I love my F-Type, but I'll never buy another Jaguar. Why the fk Jaguar thought it would be a good idea to throw two fingers to the V6 and V8 F-Type buyers by releasing an el cheapo four-pot F-Type is beyond me, but it's basically thrown me off the brand. I love my F-Type, but Jaguar aren't getting another penny off me directly.

So you're a snob?

Bit harsh, but I sort of agree. Why does an F Type suddenly become undesirable just because there is a cheaper model. It still drives exactly the same as before Jaguar released a cheaper model. I buy a car because it does what I need or want not because of what other people think of it.

Yh it's weird, 4 cylinder auto F-Type is only £4000 or so less than a V6 auto. Cheapest 911 is about half the price of the Turbo S but doesn't seem to bother Turbo S buyers, nor does the existence of a basic version seem to put off buyers of RS / M / AMG buyers. Can remember Mercedes SL having a spread of nearly 200% between top and bottom not so long ago.

All seems a bit Terry & June / Hyacinth Bouquet / suburban net-curtain twitching / golf club/ key to the executive wash room to me

Inclined to agree, most peculiar.

Considering a 4 pot F Type is a fairly logical car/niche to fill as well. Some people want a good looking convertible to cruise around in and aren't bothered about power output,which the 4 pot is perfect for. It slots right into the groove the SLK200 carved out, albeit asking a bit more money.

No way. Jaguar have sorely let him down by fitting an engine he doesn't like into some cars he isn't going to buy.

He's rightly going to spend his money with another brand now, because BMW, Audi and Mercedes never put small engines into big cars. No, sister, uh-uhh, they don't.

[ralphrj]

rockandrollmark said:

This seems to be a trend across the industry. I could choose many, but Merc seem to be the worst culprit...

Mercedes-Benz Line-up c. 1989

• 190E
• E-Class Saloon | Coupe | Convertible
• S-Class Saloon | LWB Saloon | Coupe
• SL
• G-Wagen

Today's line-up (2019)

• A-Class
• CLA | Coupe | Shooting Brake
• GLA
• B-Class
• C-Class Saloon | Estate | Coupe | Convertible
• GLC
• E-Class Saloon | Estate (plus an MG Streetwise-inspired plastic clad variant) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLE
• CLS (...no shooting brake, yes)
• S-Class Saloon (plus a Maybach variants, including a LWB land-yacht) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLS
• G-Class
• X-Class (...Navara with posh seats)
• V-Class (...Vito with carpet)
• SLC
• SL
• AMG GT
• ...and the new ECQ Electric thing

I make that 29.5 body styles! Similar story with BMW and the ever expanding range of X1, X2, X3, X4...

Were Mercedes-Benz (and BMW, and the VAG brands) really losing out on market-share in the past by not having a car for every sub-niche?

Potentially.

Number of Mercedes-Benz cars sold worldwide:

1989 - 548,600
2018 - 2,382,791

Edited by ralphrj on Monday 20th May 16:40

[SpeckledJim]

ralphrj said:

rockandrollmark said:

This seems to be a trend across the industry. I could choose many, but Merc seem to be the worst culprit...

Mercedes-Benz Line-up c. 1989

• 190E
• E-Class Saloon | Coupe | Convertible
• S-Class Saloon | LWB Saloon | Coupe
• SL
• G-Wagen

Today's line-up (2019)

• A-Class
• CLA | Coupe | Shooting Brake
• GLA
• B-Class
• C-Class Saloon | Estate | Coupe | Convertible
• GLC
• E-Class Saloon | Estate (plus an MG Streetwise-inspired plastic clad variant) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLE
• CLS (...no shooting brake, yes)
• S-Class Saloon (plus a Maybach variants, including a LWB land-yacht) | Coupe | Convertible
• GLS
• G-Class
• X-Class (...Navara with posh seats)
• V-Class (...Vito with carpet)
• SLC
• SL
• AMG GT
• ...and the new ECQ Electric thing

I make that 29.5 body styles! Similar story with BMW and the ever expanding range of X1, X2, X3, X4...

Were Mercedes-Benz (and BMW, and the VAG brands) really losing out on market-share in the past by not having a car for every sub-niche?

Potentially.

Number of Mercedes-Benz cars sold worldwide:

1989 - 301,500
2018 - 2,382,791

Absolutely.

The German manufacturers have all moved a long way down market. Both in price, and in moving away from prestigious saloons and sports cars into much more practical, less exciting, segments.

A new Mercedes used to cost as much as a house. Now it costs less than a big conservatory.

[ralphrj]

SpeckledJim said:

Absolutely.

The German manufacturers have all moved a long way down market. Both in price, and in moving away from prestigious saloons and sports cars into much more practical, less exciting, segments.

A new Mercedes used to cost as much as a house. Now it costs less than a big conservatory.

Agreed, I think it would be illuminating to compare the prices of some Mercedes models from the 1980s to today, after adjusting for inflation.

[Lindun]

ralphrj said:

SpeckledJim said:

Absolutely.

The German manufacturers have all moved a long way down market. Both in price, and in moving away from prestigious saloons and sports cars into much more practical, less exciting, segments.

A new Mercedes used to cost as much as a house. Now it costs less than a big conservatory.

Agreed, I think it would be illuminating to compare the prices of some Mercedes models from the 1980s to today, after adjusting for inflation.

Why does it matter? A business has decided to move its appeal from one area to another. If it keeps finding new niches with new markets then that’s simply good business practice. It’s when a manufacturer produces something like the Renault Avantime that things go awry, until then it’s all gravy.

Pretty much every car from every manufacturer gets bigger with every new iteration, so they’ll always need a new one at the bottom of the range to have a new entry level model. Equally adding what may seem like a leftfield option isn’t a big gamble, as they will have heavily tested the market first before spending £millions developing a new vehicle.

[rockandrollmark]

ralphrj said:

Potentially.

Number of Mercedes-Benz cars sold worldwide:

1989 - 548,600
2018 - 2,382,791

Edited by ralphrj on Monday 20th May 16:40

I’m by no means stating this as fact, purely speculation, but I imagine a lot of that is related to how people “buy” cars these days too? I’d be more interested to see gross profit of Merc and its position verses competitors 1989 vs. 2018.

[2xChevrons]

ralphrj said:

Agreed, I think it would be illuminating to compare the prices of some Mercedes models from the 1980s to today, after adjusting for inflation.

After trawling some old road tests, and using the National Archive currency/inflation adjuster:


'C-Class'

1983 Mercedes-Benz W201 190E auto - £10,640 (2017: £29,299)

2019 Mercedes-Benz W205 200d SE 4-dr auto - £32,350


'E-Class'

1985 Mercedes-Benz W124 300E - £17,840 (2017: £49,126)

2019 Mercedes-Benz W213 E220d AMG-Line Auto: £40,565


SL

1986 Mercedes-Benz R107 300SL - £24,840 (2017: £68,401)

2019 Mercedes-Benz R231 SL400 Grand - £78,380


S-Class

1986 Mercedes-Benz W126 420SEL - £28,880 (2017: £79,926)

2019 Mercedes-Benz W222 S450 Grand L - £87,455


For context:

Average wage in 1985: £8890 (£24,480 in 2017, 0.83x the price of a W201 190E)
Average wage in 2019: £29,009 (0.89x the price of a W205 200d)

Average UK house price in 1985: £34,700 (1.2x the price of a W126 420SEL)
Average UK house price in 2019: £226,234 (2.5x the price of a W222 S450 Grand L)

Cost of a Ford Sierra 1.8 Ghia in 1985: £9545 (£26,284 in 2017, 0.89x the price of a W201 190E)
Cost of a Ford Mondeo 2.0 Titanium in 2019: £27,410 (0.84x the price of a W205 200d)


I've tried to choose comparable specs, but it's tricky given how much the car market has changed; in the 1980s Mercedes didn't really do trim levels - you bought the basic car with the choice of engine/transmission and then added trim/options/equipment in almost any combination and paid heavily through the nose for all of it. But it seems that, like-for-like, Mercs haven't gone down in relative value. If anything they've got more expensive. The difference is that these days Mercedes has the A Class, which is a segment or two below the W201, and all the SUVs, coupes, cabriolets, brakes and so on which they didn't do in the 1980s (hence the point of the thread) which you can't do a direct historical comparison with but radically change Merc's cost base and the structure of its model range.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Tuesday 21st May 00:18

[Second Best]

SpeckledJim said:

No way. Jaguar have sorely let him down by fitting an engine he doesn't like into some cars he isn't going to buy.

He's rightly going to spend his money with another brand now, because BMW, Audi and Mercedes never put small engines into big cars. No, sister, uh-uhh, they don't.

Or perhaps, he's just been honest about his purchasing opinions, which seems to be lost on the hard of thinking. I appreciate my views are probably a little archaic and unreasonable, but if that was the case all round then car enjoyment would be outlawed because of the environment.

Maybe I'll purchase another TVR, I quite enjoyed my T350C. Or sorry, does that brand not work with your point?

[nickfrog]

swisstoni said:

I not sure what the problem is tbh.

Too much choice apparently. It's a bad thing...apparently.

[anonymous-user]

ralphrj said:

Number of Mercedes-Benz cars sold worldwide:

1989 - 548,600
2018 - 2,382,791

Compare the success of Austin-Rover

1989 - 411,000
2018 - 0

Mind you, BMW has worked the Mini niches to death and back again!

[SpeckledJim]

Second Best said:

SpeckledJim said:

No way. Jaguar have sorely let him down by fitting an engine he doesn't like into some cars he isn't going to buy.

He's rightly going to spend his money with another brand now, because BMW, Audi and Mercedes never put small engines into big cars. No, sister, uh-uhh, they don't.

Or perhaps, he's just been honest about his purchasing opinions, which seems to be lost on the hard of thinking. I appreciate my views are probably a little archaic and unreasonable, but if that was the case all round then car enjoyment would be outlawed because of the environment.

Maybe I'll purchase another TVR, I quite enjoyed my T350C. Or sorry, does that brand not work with your point?

You've lost me I'm afraid.

He's got a V6 or a V8 and he likes it. They launch an I4 and that's reason to move his business to a different firm. Fair enough. Bit mad, but fair enough, but does he expect that wherever he moves his business to is going to march to a different drum?

To be clear - Jaguar haven't fitted an I4 to his car. His car is still the one he likes, with the nice big engine. It's the I4 in other people's cars that he's very cross about.

[Thankyou4calling]

What do all the “Posh” people buy now the manufacturer has ruined their favoured brand?

[SpeckledJim]

Thankyou4calling said:

What do all the “Posh” people buy now the manufacturer has ruined their favoured brand?

Just about every prestige brand is selling ten times more than it used to 20 years ago.

R-R and Bentley, Aston Martin and Lamborghini, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, you name it. They've all traded brand cachet and exclusivity for volume.

When I was a kid, a ride in a BMW was bloody exciting. A ride in a Mercedes was enormously exciting.

A Rolls-Royce or Bentley or Lamborghini being sighted in our village would have made the WI newsletter.