Is the engine the most important part of the car for you?
Discussion
Mr Tidy said:
No, you are right I haven't driven one - probably because my cars mostly only have one occupant!
But my 330i reportedly does 0-62 in 6.3 seconds and has a 155 mph limiter, whereas your 2 tonne tank doesn't need that because it can't achieve it.
This is PH - Speed matters.
And no X5 will ever handle as good as an E90.
I will never argue that a E70 handles better than a E90, but I will say that 6.5s to 60 for a 2.2 tonne tank is damn impressive, considering your 330i does it in 6.3 seconds.But my 330i reportedly does 0-62 in 6.3 seconds and has a 155 mph limiter, whereas your 2 tonne tank doesn't need that because it can't achieve it.
This is PH - Speed matters.
And no X5 will ever handle as good as an E90.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Wednesday 22 May 03:06
Edited by Mr Tidy on Wednesday 22 May 03:13
Saying this, for the straight line thrills the Audi does it better for us. We considered a 330i/335i when looking for a fast saloon, but then the Audi came up and we were sold on its ability.
rayyan171 said:
Mr Tidy said:
No, you are right I haven't driven one - probably because my cars mostly only have one occupant!
But my 330i reportedly does 0-62 in 6.3 seconds and has a 155 mph limiter, whereas your 2 tonne tank doesn't need that because it can't achieve it.
This is PH - Speed matters.
And no X5 will ever handle as good as an E90.
I will never argue that a E70 handles better than a E90, but I will say that 6.5s to 60 for a 2.2 tonne tank is damn impressive, considering your 330i does it in 6.3 seconds.But my 330i reportedly does 0-62 in 6.3 seconds and has a 155 mph limiter, whereas your 2 tonne tank doesn't need that because it can't achieve it.
This is PH - Speed matters.
And no X5 will ever handle as good as an E90.
Edited by Mr Tidy on Wednesday 22 May 03:06
Edited by Mr Tidy on Wednesday 22 May 03:13
Saying this, for the straight line thrills the Audi does it better for us. We considered a 330i/335i when looking for a fast saloon, but then the Audi came up and we were sold on its ability.
For a daily driver, commuter car, it's important, however not as large a consideration as practicality, reliability, comfort etc.
For a fun car, then yes, the engine is right up there in terms of importance. It's not the only important factor, of course, as it's still critical to have a good package for the engine to be part of, however it's definitely a leader.
I'd straight off dismiss a good car if there wasn't an attractive engine option, however I could be lured towards an average car if there was a particular peach of a motor under the bonnet.
For a fun car, then yes, the engine is right up there in terms of importance. It's not the only important factor, of course, as it's still critical to have a good package for the engine to be part of, however it's definitely a leader.
I'd straight off dismiss a good car if there wasn't an attractive engine option, however I could be lured towards an average car if there was a particular peach of a motor under the bonnet.
A lot of what I'm reading is around the driving experience. How much of your choice is around reliability?
I pretty much zoned in on a MK5 Golf for my boring daily commute. The best combinations involved either the 2.0 TDi or the good old tractor 1.9TDi.
I opted for the latter due to simplicity. 7 years later, 160k miles and it's still going strong.
I guess what I'm saying is, are you basing the engine choice on characteristics or long term reliability?
I pretty much zoned in on a MK5 Golf for my boring daily commute. The best combinations involved either the 2.0 TDi or the good old tractor 1.9TDi.
I opted for the latter due to simplicity. 7 years later, 160k miles and it's still going strong.
I guess what I'm saying is, are you basing the engine choice on characteristics or long term reliability?
rayyan171 said:
aeropilot said:
rayyan171 said:
It wasn't that important for the X5 however, that was mainly needed for carrying many people at once, as well as having to be spacious, practical and have a good sense of luxury. We only chose the twin turbo diesel because it was apparently more reliable, was guaranteed the lower tax and it did make the car fast for a SUV at least. MPG differences were really marginal, they all get 24-25mpg average.
Is that a 40d X5?If so, you must cane the arse off of it to only average 24-25mpg or only do lots of short journeys?
I average 30mpg in my 40d X5 and that's living in the outer London suburbs!
More short journeys currently so showing a 23.1mpg average. 25mpg is bang on average for the pre-LCI X5 E70. Has the older ZF 6 speed instead of the 8 speed so likes to hold onto gears longer, probably helpful for overtaking but means that 3rd and 4th are commonly used around town. M57 engine is slightly older as well with a lower Euro class standard so that probably contributes to the lower consumption, it being older makes it not as efficient as the newer N57 in the 40d.
I haven't seen less than 30mpg yet from my F15 40d and averaged 41mpg on a 500+ miles round trip down to the West Country back in Feb.
I guess it depends what you want your car(s) for. If it’s the drudge to the office in a door to door traffic jam then it doesn’t matter what engine, chassis or suspension set up you’ve got, a decent sound system, climate control and comfy seats are top of your priorities.
If it’s the weekend load lugger for trips to the tip, Tesco and Ikea then it’s boot capacity and leather seats which will also accommodate the kids and their mates and the coach’s bag of footballs for the Saturday morning match.
If you do moon miles then a decent engine that won’t be overworked on the motorway ten hours a day is important, but equally so if you fancy an early morning hoon on Sunday. fk it, get an RS6 Avant and that’s all bases covered isn’t it?
If it’s the weekend load lugger for trips to the tip, Tesco and Ikea then it’s boot capacity and leather seats which will also accommodate the kids and their mates and the coach’s bag of footballs for the Saturday morning match.
If you do moon miles then a decent engine that won’t be overworked on the motorway ten hours a day is important, but equally so if you fancy an early morning hoon on Sunday. fk it, get an RS6 Avant and that’s all bases covered isn’t it?
Edited by Antony Moxey on Wednesday 22 May 09:02
cobra kid said:
I guess what I'm saying is, are you basing the engine choice on characteristics or long term reliability?
When I started the thread I was thinking about the engine characteristics (sound/revs/capacity/cylinders) and what is important/what that means to the individual. Also do you prioritise the engine over the steering/gearbox/chassis/handling etc.Reliability is massive also(as a few have mentioned) and I'm testament to that having had a TVR so I know what it is like to have an engine/car that lets you down.
The responses from everyone have been really interesting and I've really enjoyed reading them.
mwstewart said:
It's the heart of the machine. For me it's right up there - it's the difference between a good car and a great car.
This mirrors how i feel too and I do/have always placed a very strong priority on the engine for sure. If I haven't got on with the engine...then I haven't really got on with the car either. The most important part of the car for you?
IMHO of course.
1. The nut behind the wheel.
2. The chassis, as an underpowered great chassis that you can throw about is more enjoyable every day than an overpowered poor chassis.
3. The interior ergonomics
4. The gearbox. It has to downshift at the right time.
5. The exterior look and feel
6. The colour.
99. Whether it looks cute or not.
IMHO of course.
1. The nut behind the wheel.
2. The chassis, as an underpowered great chassis that you can throw about is more enjoyable every day than an overpowered poor chassis.
3. The interior ergonomics
4. The gearbox. It has to downshift at the right time.
5. The exterior look and feel
6. The colour.
99. Whether it looks cute or not.
aeropilot said:
Aah, OK, didn't realise it was the older version.
I haven't seen less than 30mpg yet from my F15 40d and averaged 41mpg on a 500+ miles round trip down to the West Country back in Feb.
Newer ones are much more efficient, no doubt about that. I think they are lighter as well. I haven't seen less than 30mpg yet from my F15 40d and averaged 41mpg on a 500+ miles round trip down to the West Country back in Feb.
It’s definitely not the be all and end all.
The engine in the Mk1 MX5 is terrible but the car is great, the same as the Twingo 133 mentioned earlier in the thread (and arguably most of Renault Sport’s products) the engine in isolation isn’t good at all.
The B16/B18 Honda used to use is what people would class as a great engine, people rave about the Integra Type R and the EK9 Civic but nobody cares much about the Civic VTI which was ably a few BHP down but didn’t look as cool.
I’ve had great cars with mediocre engines and it’s not spoilt the experience.
The engine in the Mk1 MX5 is terrible but the car is great, the same as the Twingo 133 mentioned earlier in the thread (and arguably most of Renault Sport’s products) the engine in isolation isn’t good at all.
The B16/B18 Honda used to use is what people would class as a great engine, people rave about the Integra Type R and the EK9 Civic but nobody cares much about the Civic VTI which was ably a few BHP down but didn’t look as cool.
I’ve had great cars with mediocre engines and it’s not spoilt the experience.
Ordinarily, I'd've said the engine is vital to the enjoyment of a car... until the GT86.
I don't think the engine is rubbish, but it takes some getting used to. It's relative low power, the notorious torque dip and of course the sound. In reality, power was 'enough' to have fun, you learn to drive around the dip and both sound and the dip can be improved with manifold/exhaust upgrades, plus there's several options for FI.
Despite this I still thoroughly enjoyed my four years of ownership and seriously considered buying another.
However, more recently I've discovered Porsche boxsters. My initiation was an ageing 986 which wasn't terribly quick, but superb feel and handling. When it came to replacing it I was torn between a new(ish) 718 and a nearly three years old 981. To me they felt very similar dynamically, but the sonorous flat six of the old model really sold it for me.
I don't think the engine is rubbish, but it takes some getting used to. It's relative low power, the notorious torque dip and of course the sound. In reality, power was 'enough' to have fun, you learn to drive around the dip and both sound and the dip can be improved with manifold/exhaust upgrades, plus there's several options for FI.
Despite this I still thoroughly enjoyed my four years of ownership and seriously considered buying another.
However, more recently I've discovered Porsche boxsters. My initiation was an ageing 986 which wasn't terribly quick, but superb feel and handling. When it came to replacing it I was torn between a new(ish) 718 and a nearly three years old 981. To me they felt very similar dynamically, but the sonorous flat six of the old model really sold it for me.
I drive an Audi S5 with the 4.2 V8, so it's a really interesting question.
When buying it, I wanted a V8 and a manual, with AWD a bonus for winters. And driving it really is about the engine and gearbox (although the 'box itself isn't great), because it's just a "point, press the pedal, get there fast" type car. There's no real value in taking windy country roads, or picking a route that's more 'fun' - it just gets you somewhere fast in comfort.
Thing is, it is lovely to get into and fire it up, but that's the excitement, rather than the actual process of getting anywhere, pushing on, feeling the feedback from the steering etc.
So in this car, the engine (and gearbox) are the most important part. And it makes me sad because it's not enough and I will eventually have to change it for something that's more rewarding, but with less engine. I'm hoping to be able to afford a knackered Porsche, but we'll see.
When buying it, I wanted a V8 and a manual, with AWD a bonus for winters. And driving it really is about the engine and gearbox (although the 'box itself isn't great), because it's just a "point, press the pedal, get there fast" type car. There's no real value in taking windy country roads, or picking a route that's more 'fun' - it just gets you somewhere fast in comfort.
Thing is, it is lovely to get into and fire it up, but that's the excitement, rather than the actual process of getting anywhere, pushing on, feeling the feedback from the steering etc.
So in this car, the engine (and gearbox) are the most important part. And it makes me sad because it's not enough and I will eventually have to change it for something that's more rewarding, but with less engine. I'm hoping to be able to afford a knackered Porsche, but we'll see.
It's a complicated question.
With road cars, I'd say if it feels like complete cr*p round a corner, no quality of engine is going to save it. I don't think I'd have liked the Shogun Pinin I ran for a bit even if it'd had one of Ferrari's finest up front. However, I think once handling reaches a certain minimum threshold, engine starts mattering much more to my enjoyment, because I'm not someone who likes exploring a car's handling limits on the road, and you can enjoy a charismatic engine without doing that. Refinement's very important to me too - I like a maximally comfy interior and basically no road noise. That stuff just makes me feel good.
Track, of course, is a completely different story...
With road cars, I'd say if it feels like complete cr*p round a corner, no quality of engine is going to save it. I don't think I'd have liked the Shogun Pinin I ran for a bit even if it'd had one of Ferrari's finest up front. However, I think once handling reaches a certain minimum threshold, engine starts mattering much more to my enjoyment, because I'm not someone who likes exploring a car's handling limits on the road, and you can enjoy a charismatic engine without doing that. Refinement's very important to me too - I like a maximally comfy interior and basically no road noise. That stuff just makes me feel good.
Track, of course, is a completely different story...
For me, while the engine is doubtless important, the chassis and handling are more so. I drive a 1.4 Mini One, and while the engine is happy to rev its uninspiring in almost every way. Only 94 bhp, less torque, a mediocre sound, and glacial throttle response. Were it in a less engaging chassis, with less direct steering and a higher up car, it would be utterly dreary. Placed in the context, and it's not bad. I imagine that the more powerful S and JCW versions are hilarious with the additional power and more responsive engines, but I wouldn't give up how the car feels to drive for that.
However, if I had driven a wider range of cars, in a wider range of conditions, over a longer period, I imagine this view could change. Especially looking at muscle cars - the engine and looks seem to be the only things making any of them worthwhile for people who like driving.
However, if I had driven a wider range of cars, in a wider range of conditions, over a longer period, I imagine this view could change. Especially looking at muscle cars - the engine and looks seem to be the only things making any of them worthwhile for people who like driving.
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