RE: Audi RS3 Sportback: Driven

[SidewaysSi]

tril said:

SidewaysSi said:

If trolling means having a different opinion then so be it. Enjoy.

SS

Big difference between having a different opinion and calling a car st when it clearly isn't

Sincere apologies, you are entirely right - In my opinion it is st.

As I said, it is no doubt a fine car for many but if you enjoy having a car with feel, balance and something vaguely enjoyable when pushed and steps up its game the harder you drive, it is st.

But if you like a nice interior (definitely have the soft leather and upgraded stereo) and something to impress your friends with its speed (and hence your driving as they will sit in amazement how fast their mate can drive), then they are wonderful. Truly wonderful things.

[Shiv_P]

SidewaysSi said:

tril said:

SidewaysSi said:

If trolling means having a different opinion then so be it. Enjoy.

SS

Big difference between having a different opinion and calling a car st when it clearly isn't

Sincere apologies, you are entirely right - In my opinion it is st.

As I said, it is no doubt a fine car for many but if you enjoy having a car with feel, balance and something vaguely enjoyable when pushed and steps up its game the harder you drive, it is st.

But if you like a nice interior (definitely have the soft leather and upgraded stereo) and something to impress your friends with its speed (and hence your driving as they will sit in amazement how fast their mate can drive), then they are wonderful. Truly wonderful things.

There is clearly a market for it. The facelift is firstly greatly improved in dynamic terms. Not everyone wants a car with utmost feel and rear wheel drive powerslide everywhere. Some people want a very fast great sounding hatchback with family carrying capabilities, not a 25 year old 3 series as a family car. You struggle to find any modern car with "feel"

[anonymous-user]

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Is it all 4WD you hate? Is it all Audi you hate? Is it just some sort of faux fashion thing to say they're crap?

No-one is pretending they're the new Elise, but you'd think a sentient RS3 ran over your cat the way some of you go on

[Rawwr]

BathyThermo said:

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Upside down and on fire in a children's play area near a council estate?

[2Btoo]

BathyThermo said:

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Is it all 4WD you hate? Is it all Audi you hate? Is it just some sort of faux fashion thing to say they're crap?

No-one is pretending they're the new Elise, but you'd think a sentient RS3 ran over your cat the way some of you go on

I'm not sure where the notion is that cars are only fun beyond the limits of adhesion. Grip is not the same as handling. Perhaps this is the salient fact that the Audi engineers need to understand when designing their chassis.

For a car to be fun is a combination of a very large number of things. Outright grip is something that Audi's have in abundance but is not one of those things. Very good control feedback most certainly IS one of those things and yet is lacking in all the recent hot Audi's that I have driven. A compliant ride is another one of those things and yet it too is often absent from modern Audi's. A characterful engine is yet another one of those things and the 5-cylinder Audi engines are pretty good in this respect, but their four cylinder offerings aren't anywhere near as nice. Being very quick and holding onto the road relentlessly is not actually that entertaining for that long in many people's experience.

However many people will be happy with outright speed and limitless grip and find that an Audi is a great thing. Best of luck to them and it's great that they are happy. However for such people to claim them to be the last word in driving dynamics or indeed good driver's cars makes others question the person making such claims. Couple that with the very aspirational image that Audi seems to court as well as their desirability to the lower strata of society and you end up with the current situation, and it's not very pretty.

[fido]

How does the Haldex in this compare to say the Torsen diff in an RS4 - does it feel more FWD than AWD? I know the latest versions are more reactive in sending power rearwards but if the former it would ruin the experience for me (though i’m sure for many drivers to have a 400PS five-pot would be too trumps).

[whp1983]

BathyThermo said:

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Is it all 4WD you hate? Is it all Audi you hate? Is it just some sort of faux fashion thing to say they're crap?

No-one is pretending they're the new Elise, but you'd think a sentient RS3 ran over your cat the way some of you go on

Bonkers isn’t it?!
Also don’t get the criticism of Audi being posers car.... the posers/aspirational weapon of choice round my area is very much the M4 (revved in town centre, tinted number plates, angry pose one hand on wheel etc) not that I care but S/RS/AMG and M all seem equal on this front!

[Burgerbob]

There is a load of tosh written on here. It's a hot hatch with 400bhp. It's designed to do the weekly shopping and to take the kids to school. But at the same time be very quick.

If you want the ultimate in driving dynamics, buy something else. The ultimate in practicality, buy something else. The ultimate in comfort, buy something else etc...

But if you want something that can have a good stab at doing everything, rather quickly, then perhaps give this another look.

Describing it as dull, boring etc is quite simply arrogant. A hatchback with 400bhp? That's insane and not in the slightest bit dull. I'd agree it may not be as fun to drive as a caterham, it's not meant to be.

There is a difference between opinions and facts, plus everyone has different needs and wants when looking at cars.

Opinions are like aholes, we all have one and they all stink.

This will sell really well because most people will think it's a great car, most people will welcome the security and safety that a select few driving gods thinks makes this car dull.

[SidewaysSi]

2Btoo said:

BathyThermo said:

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Is it all 4WD you hate? Is it all Audi you hate? Is it just some sort of faux fashion thing to say they're crap?

No-one is pretending they're the new Elise, but you'd think a sentient RS3 ran over your cat the way some of you go on

I'm not sure where the notion is that cars are only fun beyond the limits of adhesion. Grip is not the same as handling. Perhaps this is the salient fact that the Audi engineers need to understand when designing their chassis.

For a car to be fun is a combination of a very large number of things. Outright grip is something that Audi's have in abundance but is not one of those things. Very good control feedback most certainly IS one of those things and yet is lacking in all the recent hot Audi's that I have driven. A compliant ride is another one of those things and yet it too is often absent from modern Audi's. A characterful engine is yet another one of those things and the 5-cylinder Audi engines are pretty good in this respect, but their four cylinder offerings aren't anywhere near as nice. Being very quick and holding onto the road relentlessly is not actually that entertaining for that long in many people's experience.

However many people will be happy with outright speed and limitless grip and find that an Audi is a great thing. Best of luck to them and it's great that they are happy. However for such people to claim them to be the last word in driving dynamics or indeed good driver's cars makes others question the person making such claims. Couple that with the very aspirational image that Audi seems to court as well as their desirability to the lower strata of society and you end up with the current situation, and it's not very pretty.

Totally agree. Bingo. Speed above all else.

I honestly don't get the "but it's a 400bhp hatch - of course it is fun" brigade. Says it all really.

[HighwayStar]

Burgerbob said:

There is a load of tosh written on here. It's a hot hatch with 400bhp. It's designed to do the weekly shopping and to take the kids to school. But at the same time be very quick.

If you want the ultimate in driving dynamics, buy something else. The ultimate in practicality, buy something else. The ultimate in comfort, buy something else etc...

But if you want something that can have a good stab at doing everything, rather quickly, then perhaps give this another look.

Describing it as dull, boring etc is quite simply arrogant. A hatchback with 400bhp? That's insane and not in the slightest bit dull. I'd agree it may not be as fun to drive as a caterham, it's not meant to be.

There is a difference between opinions and facts, plus everyone has different needs and wants when looking at cars.

Opinions are like aholes, we all have one and they all stink.

This will sell really well because most people will think it's a great car, most people will welcome the security and safety that a select few driving gods thinks makes this car dull.

I touch of exaggeration there... no one is saying it should be the ultimate in driving dynamic. I get that some will find what the RS3 and a few other fast Audis offer, speed and an abundance of grip, exciting. Speed and bags of grip doesn’t do it for me but it don’t take that to mean I want to go round every corner sideways. I want some feedback and involvement, that’s how I like my performance served up. It doesn’t mean I think fast Audis are rubbish or makes me wrong. It just means they are not for me.
What’s frustrating is they could be so much better. As it is.. Audi didn’t get my money and likely never will.

[s m]

Fast Bug said:

s m said:

Fast Bug said:

s m said:

Famously Audi got a bit of a kicking from some parts of the media for the original TT edginess whereas Porsche and Ferrari would have “got away with” dynamics like that. Audi, mainstream manufacturer of 4wd security and family cars , was like the good kid at school who gets pulled up and told ‘we expected more of you,of all people”

Enthusiasts rather liked the original TT set up and there were people trying to emulate a lot of the original set up with aftermarket parts

You mean the sudden lift off oversteer that caused numerous accidents and was accredited with half a dozen deaths in the States? I don't think any manufacturer would "get away" with that in the last 50 odd years

How did Porsche gain the "Widowmaker" moniker with the 911?

That was a loooooong time ago, and like I said, it wouldn't happen these days. In those days you could "get away with" unprotected sex, drink driving was the norm and smoking was still good for you

Don't think it was any longer ago than the Audi TT that Porsche were selling cars that would snap oversteer with a sudden lift
Widowmaker moniker was famously attached ( rightly or wrongly ) to the 993 GT2 and subsequently the 996 GT2. The 996 GT2 even came out after the Audi TT debacle in 1998 and furthered the 'difficult' reputation of the 993 GT2 and earlier 930 Turbo - similar to the Audi TT it was lift- off oversteer that did for many drivers. Likewise as a proportion of total cars sold and used I'm sure there are plenty of 996 GT2s and original spec Audi TTs that never crashed. There was an Audi TT thread recently on here where some owners of original cars said they'd never had the updates/spoiler fitted as they were happy with the car

Then there were the Walter Rohrl comments about the Carrera GT that came out in 2004 -
During the development of the Carrera GT, Porsche test driver Walter Rohrl told writers at Drive that it was the first time in his life he was ever scared of a car.( Bearing in mind some of the stuff he's driven that's a telling remark ) He had even suggested to Porsche engineers to fit a traction control switch due to the car’s unpredictable behavior for wet road conditions

No, I think the earlier comment from another poster is very true. People had/have different expectations of a limited run rwd turbo car from Porsche to a 4wd turbo coupé from a more mainstream manufacturer like Audi. Audi acted quite quickly with changes to the TT but Porsche didn't really fit a host of electronic aids to the GT2 until the 997 arrived

What I found interesting is that almost all the major journos in 98 lauded the original 'dangerous' TT as a great drivers' car - whether it was by luck or judgement or the lack of a rear spoiler - it even won CAR magazine's Handling award. These are the same journos that tell us how great and exciting a 911 is. They even tried to replicate the dangerous characteristics reported in Germany using their UK test car and couldn't
Some while later the same mags then went on to tell us how all the safety changes to the Audi TT had really blunted the enjoyment and appeal as a driving machine - it was stodgier, less agile etc. Hasn't harmed TT sales over the years of course but I'm sure Audi were keen to avoid more criticism like that.

All manufacturers have upped their game with stability systems etc since then as you say

[Shambler]

SidewaysSi said:

2Btoo said:

BathyThermo said:

To those that call it boring, what do you think happens with it when you get to, and beyond, the limits of adhesion?

Is it all 4WD you hate? Is it all Audi you hate? Is it just some sort of faux fashion thing to say they're crap?

No-one is pretending they're the new Elise, but you'd think a sentient RS3 ran over your cat the way some of you go on

I'm not sure where the notion is that cars are only fun beyond the limits of adhesion. Grip is not the same as handling. Perhaps this is the salient fact that the Audi engineers need to understand when designing their chassis.

For a car to be fun is a combination of a very large number of things. Outright grip is something that Audi's have in abundance but is not one of those things. Very good control feedback most certainly IS one of those things and yet is lacking in all the recent hot Audi's that I have driven. A compliant ride is another one of those things and yet it too is often absent from modern Audi's. A characterful engine is yet another one of those things and the 5-cylinder Audi engines are pretty good in this respect, but their four cylinder offerings aren't anywhere near as nice. Being very quick and holding onto the road relentlessly is not actually that entertaining for that long in many people's experience.

However many people will be happy with outright speed and limitless grip and find that an Audi is a great thing. Best of luck to them and it's great that they are happy. However for such people to claim them to be the last word in driving dynamics or indeed good driver's cars makes others question the person making such claims. Couple that with the very aspirational image that Audi seems to court as well as their desirability to the lower strata of society and you end up with the current situation, and it's not very pretty.

Totally agree. Bingo. Speed above all else.

I honestly don't get the "but it's a 400bhp hatch - of course it is fun" brigade. Says it all really.

It looks like you don’t get a lot of things.

[Water Fairy]

Burgerbob said:

There is a load of tosh written on here. It's a hot hatch with 400bhp. It's designed to do the weekly shopping and to take the kids to school. But at the same time be very quick.

If you want the ultimate in driving dynamics, buy something else. The ultimate in practicality, buy something else. The ultimate in comfort, buy something else etc...

But if you want something that can have a good stab at doing everything, rather quickly, then perhaps give this another look.

Describing it as dull, boring etc is quite simply arrogant. A hatchback with 400bhp? That's insane and not in the slightest bit dull. I'd agree it may not be as fun to drive as a caterham, it's not meant to be.

There is a difference between opinions and facts, plus everyone has different needs and wants when looking at cars.

Opinions are like aholes, we all have one and they all stink.

This will sell really well because most people will think it's a great car, most people will welcome the security and safety that a select few driving gods thinks makes this car dull.

I agree with a lot of what you say but the elephant in the room is that other manufacturers seem to be able to make a HH that is almost as quick but genuinely a lot more fun.

[ghost83]

Water Fairy said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but the elephant in the room is that other manufacturers seem to be able to make a HH that is almost as quick but genuinely a lot more fun.

Again though it’s not just about how quick it is or the handling it’s the whole package

It is quick it grips well it has a lovely interior imo it looks lovely you can seat 5 and it’s an Audi and I like Audi’s

For me the major drawback is price and it’s the same for the M2 I think 38-40k spot on but 50k is a whole other territory!

I think they priced the 8v pfl rs3 just right when it first came out

[toon10]

mrclav said:

I do still have a soft spot for these even if I know an M2 is probably the better drivers choice...

I suppose it's all down to how cheaply they can be financed. I have a massive craving for an M2 and it's the more desirable choice, however the Audi is nice enough to take the business if the deals are right.

[HighwayStar]

ghost83 said:

Water Fairy said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but the elephant in the room is that other manufacturers seem to be able to make a HH that is almost as quick but genuinely a lot more fun.

Again though it’s not just about how quick it is or the handling it’s the whole package

It is quick it grips well it has a lovely interior imo it looks lovely you can seat 5 and it’s an Audi and I like Audi’s

For me the major drawback is price and it’s the same for the M2 I think 38-40k spot on but 50k is a whole other territory!

I think they priced the 8v pfl rs3 just right when it first came out

Of course it grips well, lots of cars do... and again those who prefer something more connected aren't about ultimate speed or going sideways.
There are a number of ways enthusiasts like their performance... you only have to look at the debate re the 718 F4T v the 981 F6 to see an example of that. For some the RS3 would be enough. As you say, as an all rounder it ticks many boxes but.. if some really want something more involving, it isn't enough. When I got my TTS, I knew exactly what I was getting. A nice place to be, fast, cheap to maintain. It suited my pocket at the time but it could never deliver what I wanted from a car. Like your RS3, I had friends who thought the TTS was brilliant and couldn't understand why I didn't like it.
It wasn't a bad car, as I said enthusiast like their performance served up in different was. It doesn't make the RS3 a bad car, some enjoy what it does. others don't. No one is wrong.

[okenemem]

love this thing

[mrnoisy78]

I’ve had a few big quick cars over the last few years. Went from a 470bhp Impreza to an e92 M3 to a Focus RS Mk3 to a C63 and now in a pre fl RS3 8V.

Out of all of them I have to say the car I wish I hadn’t sold was the Mercedes. Yes the RWD was rubbish in the snow but better in the wet than the M3. It didn’t handle as well as the M3 but as a daily it was way more of an occasion to drive and the noise and constant wave of torque and acceleration always put a smile on my face.
What didn’t was the cost of filling it up and taxing it every year, and the fact I didn’t need a massive boot as the kids are growing up meant time for a change.

The little Audi honestly isn’t as entertaining, nor is it as practical in terms of rear legroom or bootspace for those to whom it matters, but when you want to use the power on the road for an overtake it’s more than quick enough.
In fairness for road driving so is an S3 or Golf R, I went for the RS3 as I got a better trade in deal on the Merc.
It’s cheaper mpg wise and tax wise (but not service wise).

On the downside, the owners groups seem less clued up, the dealers haven’t an effing clue, the in car menu system is hopeless, the boot is bloody tiny and the brakes are poor and squeak. It also understeers when you try and carry too much speed into a corner - needs a thicker ARB like most Imprezas.
On the plus side you can still fling it about and it’s quite nimble; not Civic Type R nimble but then it’s not a track car this is a road car for people who don’t want a shouty hot hatch, but still enjoy the sound of that 5 cylinder.

Would I buy another? Have to say no. Think when it’s time I may be looking at another C63 come winter time next year...

[ghost83]

md_ian said:

You've been lucky, I've had numerous Golf's, and those with sunroofs have always had a rattle, but the main point was that I'd not use it, and therefore don't want it compulsory ticked on an order, paying for it, and the weight that it contributes to the overall.

I believe that is the case, though touch wood, my GTI PP has never had any cause for concern and we literally dump it everywhere (within reason!). I'm told the target is certainly more with the awd 5 door R's and RS3's. Cannot live your life in fear of course, but as a daily, often with my young son in the car with missus driving, I considered it too high a risk.

I always use my sunroof makes it a pleasure in these warm days

[beanoir]

Burgerbob said:

There is a load of tosh written on here. It's a hot hatch with 400bhp. It's designed to do the weekly shopping and to take the kids to school. But at the same time be very quick.

If you want the ultimate in driving dynamics, buy something else. The ultimate in practicality, buy something else. The ultimate in comfort, buy something else etc...

But if you want something that can have a good stab at doing everything, rather quickly, then perhaps give this another look.

Describing it as dull, boring etc is quite simply arrogant. A hatchback with 400bhp? That's insane and not in the slightest bit dull. I'd agree it may not be as fun to drive as a caterham, it's not meant to be.

There is a difference between opinions and facts, plus everyone has different needs and wants when looking at cars.

Opinions are like aholes, we all have one and they all stink.

This will sell really well because most people will think it's a great car, most people will welcome the security and safety that a select few driving gods thinks makes this car dull.

Wow, ran out of happy pills over Bank Holiday?

It's a boring car, there are other more exciting hot hatches out there - shopping trollies included.

This is PH, we are all driving gods, get over it.