What’s the cheapest way to build a car with 1000bhp per ton?

What’s the cheapest way to build a car with 1000bhp per ton?

Author
Discussion

WCZ

10,492 posts

193 months

Monday 3rd June 2019
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Olivera said:
Undoubtedly possible to make the figure in an Ultima, but build cost for this spec Ultima was £96k+ about 5 years ago, so I'd be guessing £110k+ now.
yep, insane value for money. pretty much unrivaled

TwinExit

532 posts

91 months

Wednesday 5th June 2019
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MG CHRIS said:
Then you got a really heavy lumbering car on track that can only go quick in a straight line it will also destroy tyres and brakes for fun most gtr I've seen on track don't look fun or indeed quick. In reality the 1000bhp/Ton aim on a road/track car is not feseable or likely especially on a budget or that fun.
Just because the GTRs you seen on track don't appear that quick, it doesn't mean the car itself is not capable. It has one the most effective '4WD' systems out there, which behaves like RWD until traction is needed.

You simply not taken account of the driver experience or willingness to take risks.

500-1000 BHP on a 'budget' will see you regularly replacing crankshafts, rods, pistons, head gaskets which will get costly and tiresome, in which you'll end up spending a fortune to get it right at the end. And you're worried about tyres and brake pads on a 1500 kg car??




CousinDupree

779 posts

66 months

Wednesday 5th June 2019
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A seven clone with a sleeved K24 Honda engine and turbo.

5-600bhp and similar weight. A hell of a lot of work will be needed to make it usable / reliable though.

Edited by CousinDupree on Wednesday 5th June 10:29

J4CKO

41,286 posts

199 months

Wednesday 5th June 2019
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Ultima GTR and order an engine from Nelson Racing Engines in the states, obviously not quite that simple but I think it would work, wont be super cheap but will have the power and mostly cope with it, all depends on how its put together.

PorkFan

Original Poster:

291 posts

179 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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This is the car....already AWD. Weighs somewhere between 840-865kg from the factory. Pretty much an AWD Suzuki swift. I know it’s ugly, but it will eventually look like a mk2 swift Gti.....what I had as my first car, so have a real soft spot for them. Think the highest boho I’ve seen from a Suzuki engine is around 400bhp and the weak drivetrain and rarity of some of the parts made me look elsewhere for the Engine.

This project has been in my head in some form or another for the past 20 years or so, and the drivetrain I always planned to use was Mitsubishi Evo stuff. I have decided to take a different route for a few reasons. I have decided to do a Honda K swap instead. I always fancied a FWD k swapped swift, but after a lot of reading and YouTube videos (thanks Pirate Garage) I decided to use a Honda CR-V box and rear diff and do an AWD k swapped Justy/Swift instead. There’s a lot of people running big horsepower through these setups in the USA, the parts are cheap, really really cheap. I love Honda engines anyway and have already had a k swapped DC2 and EG civic, and I have already seen a k swapped swift FWD....so I knew the engine fitted. Also there are a lot of new parts coming on the market at the moment for AWD Honda swaps.....billet transfer cases, LSD’s, I don’t see any problem in building a suitable setup capable of throwing a 750kg car down the road, and I know a 750bhp K series engine is a realistic proposition.....although we will be starting with less power to get the car up and running. Maybe a stock k24/k20 boosted to 500 will be enough? It would be nice to think if I ever blew the engine I could just go get another from a local scrap yard.

So money spent so far.....
Justy £850
CR-V donor £400, although I think we will get most of that back weighing it in. Think the cats go for decent money
K24 accord engine £300 (yeah that was a bargain, but I got it at mates rates....and I know it runs fine as I was using the car it was in just before it was scrapped.

There is no issues with transmission tunnel, petrol tank, spare wheel well as it’s already AWD. And the justy and CR-V back diffs look feet similar in size, shape, and mounting style. Really doesn’t look like a big job to get the diff mounted. Engine balanced in place for now, looks like it’s meant to be there.

Couple of pics to follow if I can

PorkFan

Original Poster:

291 posts

179 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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InitialDave

11,854 posts

118 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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Small, light hatchback, something that comes in at under a tonne standard.

Second front engine bay section cut out a donor car and welded into the rear of the shell.

Twin engined using a transverse engine/box out of a FWD car each end. Probably something like a turbo Honda K series.

Throw away everything not strictly necessary.

That should get you 1000bhp per tonne with AWD.

Could go crazier take the idea up to Hurst Hairy Olds levels.

Scrump

21,889 posts

157 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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PorkFan said:
This is the car....already AWD. Weighs somewhere between 840-865kg from the factory. Pretty much an AWD Suzuki swift. I know it’s ugly, but it will eventually look like a mk2 swift Gti.....what I had as my first car, so have a real soft spot for them. Think the highest boho I’ve seen from a Suzuki engine is around 400bhp and the weak drivetrain and rarity of some of the parts made me look elsewhere for the Engine.

This project has been in my head in some form or another for the past 20 years or so, and the drivetrain I always planned to use was Mitsubishi Evo stuff. I have decided to take a different route for a few reasons. I have decided to do a Honda K swap instead. I always fancied a FWD k swapped swift, but after a lot of reading and YouTube videos (thanks Pirate Garage) I decided to use a Honda CR-V box and rear diff and do an AWD k swapped Justy/Swift instead. There’s a lot of people running big horsepower through these setups in the USA, the parts are cheap, really really cheap. I love Honda engines anyway and have already had a k swapped DC2 and EG civic, and I have already seen a k swapped swift FWD....so I knew the engine fitted. Also there are a lot of new parts coming on the market at the moment for AWD Honda swaps.....billet transfer cases, LSD’s, I don’t see any problem in building a suitable setup capable of throwing a 750kg car down the road, and I know a 750bhp K series engine is a realistic proposition.....although we will be starting with less power to get the car up and running. Maybe a stock k24/k20 boosted to 500 will be enough? It would be nice to think if I ever blew the engine I could just go get another from a local scrap yard.

So money spent so far.....
Justy £850
CR-V donor £400, although I think we will get most of that back weighing it in. Think the cats go for decent money
K24 accord engine £300 (yeah that was a bargain, but I got it at mates rates....and I know it runs fine as I was using the car it was in just before it was scrapped.

There is no issues with transmission tunnel, petrol tank, spare wheel well as it’s already AWD. And the justy and CR-V back diffs look feet similar in size, shape, and mounting style. Really doesn’t look like a big job to get the diff mounted. Engine balanced in place for now, looks like it’s meant to be there.

Couple of pics to follow if I can
This needs a build thread in the Reader’s Cars section.

Cambs_Stuart

2,833 posts

83 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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I've not tried to do this, but what I've seen some from other builds I've followed is that if you go down a very light 2wd car then you are going to have a lot of traction issues. If you go for a bigger car (and 4wd) then to get to that kind if power then you are probably looking at a very big turbo, whcih may then lead to turbo lag and driveability issues on the road.
Can be done with a decent budget. Matty at MB developments built an 800hp+ stripped out time attack Subaru impreza.

https://www.scoobynet.com/members-gallery-5/100747...

Tricky part is reliability.

Cambs_Stuart

2,833 posts

83 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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Scrump said:
This needs a build thread in the Reader’s Cars section.
+1. Please. I'd love to see this...

Pit Pony

8,265 posts

120 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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clarkey said:
I have a Caterham 620R with 310bhp and nearly 600bhp/tonne. I guess it might be possible to lose some weight and give it another 200bhp or so, but having driven this, I'm not sure it's necessary!!
I'm guessing that's an understatement.

Byker28i

58,831 posts

216 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
Why not use the Hellephant engine. Proven engine, everything available, then find a yank chassis it will fit - there's plenty of them
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/american-cars/dod...

PorkFan

Original Poster:

291 posts

179 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
Why not use the Hellephant engine. Proven engine, everything available, then find a yank chassis it will fit - there's plenty of them
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/american-cars/dod...
Really not my thing at all. I imagine the engine alone costs more than I’m planning on spending on the whole project aswell

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Tuesday 11th June 2019
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SpeckledJim said:
Max_Torque said:
As i said up there^^ it'll be relatively easy to do for short periods with a Tesla based powertrain. P100D ludicrous mode is limited to 605 bhp by battery durab limits, so if you sack those off, then you've got at least the motor rated power of 762 bhp (combined Front + Rear), so you need a vehicle that weighs less than 750 kg,which ought not to be too difficult with a lightweight space frame and the smallest battery you dare fit. Likely to be far more reliable, and way quicker round a circuit than any highly boosted ICE powertrain (but top speed and duration limited)
Are Tesla battery packs divisible?

Could you take a road car Tesla battery and divide it into, say, four, and make them removable/swappable?

Then you could have, say, 60kWh with you, but only carry 15 at a time.
from what i have seen on rich rebuilds you need a lot of packs to get enough current (if i recall the tesla RS4 has 500kgs of batteries)

tesla also seam to be going out of their way to mess up after market repairs by locking engines and key components to the ECU making it very hard to swap them


PorkFan

Original Poster:

291 posts

179 months

Monday 22nd July 2019
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Just a quick bump for anyone that posted early on wondering what was planned and missed the reply. I did leave it a bit of a while and this place is so busy threads can get lost back to page 5 pretty quickly. We will be doing a detailed build thread on here, and maybe start a YouTube series if there’s enough interest. Things have been slow so far, but we intend to put some time into this project in the near future.

Myself and my friend who is going to help me have done a few engine swaps etc in the past.....like working on and modifying cars.....neither of us have motorsport or engineering backgrounds.....but I think our plan is sound....and most importantly....we aren’t scared to give it a go. We are happy to fail if we come out having learnt something, and welcome any opinions and ideas on any aspect of the build.......we will probably ignore most advice....but are just as happy to be proved wrong as proved right.

I’m pretty sure we can achieve 500bhp 750kg and be drivable and reliable for around the £10k mark. If that works then another 5k should see us forged with a big turbo and somewhere near the thread title. I could of course be completely wrong and living in some kind of dream world.....let’s find out shall we?

Plate spinner

17,649 posts

199 months

Monday 22nd July 2019
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Good luck!
Have you got a link to the readers car thread?

MG CHRIS

9,077 posts

166 months

Monday 22nd July 2019
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Your living in a bit of a dream world. But the world would be a boring place if nobody actually carried out their dreams and ideas so good luck and hope you succeed in your goal project looks interesting.

Kolbenkopp

2,343 posts

150 months

Monday 22nd July 2019
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You guys are obviously completely crazy --- which is something to applaud smile.

Only half serious reply as I can't really help on the difficult bits... Getting more power into a 7 type car seems like a more obvious way of getting there. Or a less obvious way, get an older single seater, say Formula Renault, boost that to 400+ HP. Should get one to 800 HP/tonne under 20k.

Really like the idea with the Swift though...

Nerdherder

1,773 posts

96 months

Tuesday 23rd July 2019
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RobM77 said:
the_stoat said:
Have you driven anything with that much power on track? My friend's car is 560bhp per ton and can be described as brutal, much faster and I do not think driving it would be fun. It turns tracks into a series of back to back corners as the driver work rate is so high
As has been discussed already, there's a lot more to enjoyment of a car than power; especially on a race track. However, I guess that's against the spirit of the thread.

The other thing worth considering is that there's more to lap times than power. A lot more. For example, a Formula Renault with 200bhp and 500kg (400bhp/tonne) can lap Silverstone GP circuit in under 2 minutes without too much trouble (lap record is about 1min57s I think). That's a full 20-30 seconds a lap quicker than a very serious supercar like a P1 or a trackday special such as a 2-Eleven, 620R etc. It's also several seconds quicker than a Moto GP bike with a power to weight ratio well over the OP's stated 1000bhp/tonne. Even a Formula Ford, with zero downforce and a Fiesta engine, can lap most circuits quicker than anything road legal. It's simply not necessary to have a mega power to weight ratio to go fast. There are huge leaps forward in braking and cornering to be gained from a car by making clever mods - leaps worth far more than chasing power to weight (and cheaper too). I mention this because on the road where you can't carry corner speed or commit to corners these facts of physics get lost somewhat. On the road, power to weight ratio means more. On the track, less so.
This makes sense. A trailer and used formula car would be my choice too by the way.

Nerdherder

1,773 posts

96 months

Tuesday 23rd July 2019
quotequote all
Scrump said:
PorkFan said:
This is the car....already AWD. Weighs somewhere between 840-865kg from the factory. Pretty much an AWD Suzuki swift. I know it’s ugly, but it will eventually look like a mk2 swift Gti.....what I had as my first car, so have a real soft spot for them. Think the highest boho I’ve seen from a Suzuki engine is around 400bhp and the weak drivetrain and rarity of some of the parts made me look elsewhere for the Engine.

This project has been in my head in some form or another for the past 20 years or so, and the drivetrain I always planned to use was Mitsubishi Evo stuff. I have decided to take a different route for a few reasons. I have decided to do a Honda K swap instead. I always fancied a FWD k swapped swift, but after a lot of reading and YouTube videos (thanks Pirate Garage) I decided to use a Honda CR-V box and rear diff and do an AWD k swapped Justy/Swift instead. There’s a lot of people running big horsepower through these setups in the USA, the parts are cheap, really really cheap. I love Honda engines anyway and have already had a k swapped DC2 and EG civic, and I have already seen a k swapped swift FWD....so I knew the engine fitted. Also there are a lot of new parts coming on the market at the moment for AWD Honda swaps.....billet transfer cases, LSD’s, I don’t see any problem in building a suitable setup capable of throwing a 750kg car down the road, and I know a 750bhp K series engine is a realistic proposition.....although we will be starting with less power to get the car up and running. Maybe a stock k24/k20 boosted to 500 will be enough? It would be nice to think if I ever blew the engine I could just go get another from a local scrap yard.

So money spent so far.....
Justy £850
CR-V donor £400, although I think we will get most of that back weighing it in. Think the cats go for decent money
K24 accord engine £300 (yeah that was a bargain, but I got it at mates rates....and I know it runs fine as I was using the car it was in just before it was scrapped.

There is no issues with transmission tunnel, petrol tank, spare wheel well as it’s already AWD. And the justy and CR-V back diffs look feet similar in size, shape, and mounting style. Really doesn’t look like a big job to get the diff mounted. Engine balanced in place for now, looks like it’s meant to be there.

Couple of pics to follow if I can
This needs a build thread in the Reader’s Cars section.
Seconded!