RE: New AMG 2.0-litre is "most powerful ever
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
996GT3_Matt said:
Staggering progress, when you consider that the power output of the legendary 6.2L V8 was around 450-460BHP?
Only in the C-class. The W211 E63 had 507bhp, the W212 518bhp. S63 about the same I think? Then the dry-sump M159 version made up to 618bhp. Quite a long way to go to match that.Personally, I find nothing exciting about this. Another utterly sterile boring-sounding 4-cylinder hatch... and north of £60k?! If I had that kind of money to spend on a car, I sure as hell wouldn't be looking at a 4-cylinder hatch!
This can only be good. Technology scales up as well as down...
Burwood said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
Darren93 said:
That'll be pricey...
looking at the GLC prices i would say 65k for an S with options The new A45 should be very nice matched with the changes to the AWD system that make the car rear biased and want to drift
hope the GLA45 is launched soon after, should be a riot with this revised tech
At 60k I would be looking at 997 turbo, evora S etc. The a45 just wouldn’t excite me the same.
Bit as others have said 421bhp is bonkers.
Baldchap said:
RoverP6B said:
996GT3_Matt said:
Staggering progress, when you consider that the power output of the legendary 6.2L V8 was around 450-460BHP?
Only in the C-class. The W211 E63 had 507bhp, the W212 518bhp. S63 about the same I think? Then the dry-sump M159 version made up to 618bhp. Quite a long way to go to match that.Personally, I find nothing exciting about this. Another utterly sterile boring-sounding 4-cylinder hatch... and north of £60k?! If I had that kind of money to spend on a car, I sure as hell wouldn't be looking at a 4-cylinder hatch!
This can only be good. Technology scales up as well as down...
Leon R said:
It isn't really fair to compare a brand new A45 to a Porsche that is at least seven years old though. Not that I wouldn't buy something used too with 60K but it is comparing apples to oranges.
Yep I agree it’s not comparing apples with apples. My point is I would rather have a used Porsche at £60k than a new A45 hot hatchback. £60k or even £70k as someone earlier who works for Merc said is probable with all the options is mental. It’s bloody ludicrous. You can buy a house for that money (nearly). Ultimately the a45 is just a hot hatch. I applaud Merc for making it. It’s fantastic that it’s an option available to us. But it’s well over priced because of the pcp/lease deals that will be available at £xxx a month. Those people don’t care about the actual overall price just the monthly so Merc can jack the price up to increase the monthly. It’s just the world we live in now.
BricktopST205 said:
Not really. In 1998 you had 4 pots pushing out 300BHP from factory in Japanese rally reps. 22B was 320ish BHP and even the regular STi's and Evo's were 300BHP (276BHP according to the gentlemans agreement 
)
22B was 276BHP, as were all the JDM STi's of the late 90's, and that was with the use of octane boosting the then 97RON SUL. They were not as powerful as you state. Quite often they produced lower figures, especially on a rolling road with heat soak into the TMIC.)The JDM STi's have been using twin scroll turbos since 2003, sleeve bearing version on the STi, roller bearing on the Spec C, so this AMG using a twin scroll turbo is nothing remotely new on a 4pot 2 litre.
I've been running more power/torque on my JDM STi than this engine since 2012, it's not huge power/torque for a reliable daily driver if built properly using the right bits. With the experience of an OEM like Mercedes its surprising its taken so long for them to catch up, i wouldnt be at all surprised if they had the technology long ago, but have a release ramp up profile they are following to always be bringing something new to the market.
Question for Racermike or any other OEM engine professionals.
How come it runs 2,1bar boost with these power levels? On a EA888 gen3 that would equate to ~470hp/600Nm, GPF included. Or is 2,1bar just an absolute peak figure for high hot conditions in order to keep the power up even then?
Impressive engine, hoping the new 4wd system will better the Focus RS with even better calibrarion. The I hope they will make the estate again and that the result isn't too heavy, and lastly that I can afford/make sense of getting one. Closest alternative would be a M340i estate (xdrive) for me. Just hoping to own a dynamic rear biased 4wd estate one day that is closer to 1500kg than 2 tonnes kerb...
How come it runs 2,1bar boost with these power levels? On a EA888 gen3 that would equate to ~470hp/600Nm, GPF included. Or is 2,1bar just an absolute peak figure for high hot conditions in order to keep the power up even then?
Impressive engine, hoping the new 4wd system will better the Focus RS with even better calibrarion. The I hope they will make the estate again and that the result isn't too heavy, and lastly that I can afford/make sense of getting one. Closest alternative would be a M340i estate (xdrive) for me. Just hoping to own a dynamic rear biased 4wd estate one day that is closer to 1500kg than 2 tonnes kerb...
Once again, the Germans don't get it.
Throwing large HP numbers at an overweight, over-tyred 'hot hatch'.
It will be fast of course, but also cumbersome and extremely dull to drive. It'll have no razor sharp agility and won't be fun under 50 MPH.
Misses the point entirely in my opinion.
The Germans seem to have this 'ours is faster than yours' mentality when it comes to hot hatches. I'm not impressed at all.
What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
Throwing large HP numbers at an overweight, over-tyred 'hot hatch'.
It will be fast of course, but also cumbersome and extremely dull to drive. It'll have no razor sharp agility and won't be fun under 50 MPH.
Misses the point entirely in my opinion.
The Germans seem to have this 'ours is faster than yours' mentality when it comes to hot hatches. I'm not impressed at all.
What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
DazzaSport said:
Once again, the Germans don't get it.
Throwing large HP numbers at an overweight, over-tyred 'hot hatch'.
It will be fast of course, but also cumbersome and extremely dull to drive. It'll have no razor sharp agility and won't be fun under 50 MPH.
Misses the point entirely in my opinion.
The Germans seem to have this 'ours is faster than yours' mentality when it comes to hot hatches. I'm not impressed at all.
What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
If the Germans don't get it, why are their cars selling by the masses? Throwing large HP numbers at an overweight, over-tyred 'hot hatch'.
It will be fast of course, but also cumbersome and extremely dull to drive. It'll have no razor sharp agility and won't be fun under 50 MPH.
Misses the point entirely in my opinion.
The Germans seem to have this 'ours is faster than yours' mentality when it comes to hot hatches. I'm not impressed at all.
What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
What family sized cars weigh 1000kg? Even a Fiesta ST is nearly 1300kg.
How do you know it'll be dull to drive when it sounds like it will be according to reports?
The bit I don't get is when people offer their opinions they offer it with no basis and unrealistic demands.
Driver101 said:
If the Germans don't get it, why are their cars selling by the masses?
What family sized cars weigh 1000kg? Even a Fiesta ST is nearly 1300kg.
How do you know it'll be dull to drive when it sounds like it will be according to reports?
The bit I don't get is when people offer their opinions they offer it with no basis and unrealistic demands.
Unrealistic demands? The new turbo Swift Sport is fully loaded as standard, and yet weighs 975kg.What family sized cars weigh 1000kg? Even a Fiesta ST is nearly 1300kg.
How do you know it'll be dull to drive when it sounds like it will be according to reports?
The bit I don't get is when people offer their opinions they offer it with no basis and unrealistic demands.
The new car is actually lighter than the old one by 80kg. That really is impressive.
Some manufacturer's will brag about losing 100kg out of a 2 tonne car. When it is far easier to lose weight in an already heavy car, than a car that is already lightweight.
Personally, I think that most people have forgotten what made hot hatches great. These days, people are sucked in by the 'premium' interior and how much HP is under the bonnet. Rather than actually looking into what makes a car great to drive.
Anyone can throw a powerful engine in a car, and not care much about weight. I'm not impressed with that at all.
I'm more impressed by great engineering. Lightness of weight, and just enough power to enjoy it. Something that is great to drive at all speeds. Not something that is only fun when you boot it.
A hot hatch, in my opinion - should be supremely agile, and offer scrappy laugh out loud lightweight car handling. It doesn't need huge HP... And hence, in my opinion... The Germans don't get it.
DazzaSport said:
Unrealistic demands? The new turbo Swift Sport is fully loaded as standard, and yet weighs 975kg.
The new car is actually lighter than the old one by 80kg. That really is impressive.
Some manufacturer's will brag about losing 100kg out of a 2 tonne car. When it is far easier to lose weight in an already heavy car, than a car that is already lightweight.
Personally, I think that most people have forgotten what made hot hatches great. These days, people are sucked in by the 'premium' interior and how much HP is under the bonnet. Rather than actually looking into what makes a car great to drive.
Anyone can throw a powerful engine in a car, and not care much about weight. I'm not impressed with that at all.
I'm more impressed by great engineering. Lightness of weight, and just enough power to enjoy it. Something that is great to drive at all speeds. Not something that is only fun when you boot it.
A hot hatch, in my opinion - should be supremely agile, and offer scrappy laugh out loud lightweight car handling. It doesn't need huge HP... And hence, in my opinion... The Germans don't get it.
Is the Suzuki Swift a 250bhp family sized hatch? I can only see 138bhp and lukewarm reviews about it too. Evo stress that even though it has lost 80kg it isn't as good as the last one. The new car is actually lighter than the old one by 80kg. That really is impressive.
Some manufacturer's will brag about losing 100kg out of a 2 tonne car. When it is far easier to lose weight in an already heavy car, than a car that is already lightweight.
Personally, I think that most people have forgotten what made hot hatches great. These days, people are sucked in by the 'premium' interior and how much HP is under the bonnet. Rather than actually looking into what makes a car great to drive.
Anyone can throw a powerful engine in a car, and not care much about weight. I'm not impressed with that at all.
I'm more impressed by great engineering. Lightness of weight, and just enough power to enjoy it. Something that is great to drive at all speeds. Not something that is only fun when you boot it.
A hot hatch, in my opinion - should be supremely agile, and offer scrappy laugh out loud lightweight car handling. It doesn't need huge HP... And hence, in my opinion... The Germans don't get it.
The world have moved on from old raw hot hatchbacks. People want refinement as part of the overall package. That's why the Germans get it.
Even the most focussed hatchbacks, such as the Civic Type R, all come loaded with all the gadgets. That's what the market wants.
I'd say it's more your opinion of what you think other people should like, want or have forgotten about is wrong.
DazzaSport said:
Once again the Germans don't get it.
What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
It's called a Lotus Elise 250 Cup. No back seats, no infotainment, very limited boot space. They are excellent. Lotus have sold 6 this year from what I can gather.What would impress me, is a car closer to 1000 kg in weight. Not too big. No more than 250 HP. Lightweight wheels and tyres. Something with real agility.
It will never happen though.
The Germans absolutely DO get it, which is why there's a Golf R on every street corner and squillions of C/E classes in every car park. As has repeatedly been said, they're here to make money. Your GT86 fantasy didn't sell. These Uber hatches do.
I would wait until the car is officially launched and the actual real on road power/torque numbers are confirmed for UK use.
Peak torque (370 lbs/ft ) appears just to be within the pump unleaded fuel limits for a 2 litre.
Reliability at these touted power/torque levels all lies in the knock resistance of the fuel available at the forecourt.
Peak torque (370 lbs/ft ) appears just to be within the pump unleaded fuel limits for a 2 litre.
Reliability at these touted power/torque levels all lies in the knock resistance of the fuel available at the forecourt.
This news is absolutely bloody brilliant - well done AMG!!
To think the testing they must've put this block through to hit emissions targets, response, longevity is nuts.
I'd love to see the routine for testing the blocks. Cold starts, revving hard, long oil change intervals - yet it still does the business.
What a piece of engineering.
To think the testing they must've put this block through to hit emissions targets, response, longevity is nuts.
I'd love to see the routine for testing the blocks. Cold starts, revving hard, long oil change intervals - yet it still does the business.
What a piece of engineering.
cerb4.5lee said:
philmots said:
I’ve got an A35 on order,
I saw one of these in the metal today for the first time and I loved the way it looked. I think you will be well happy with it and I'm a big fan. 
I think it looks bloody fantastic and I'm sorely tempted myself....!!
Granted it's no-longer a £30K car with that spec, but for some reason, this car is in serious danger of making me break my "I'll NEVER buy new" rule.
Either that or a 3-year-old optioned car for £20K
Onehp said:
Question for Racermike or any other OEM engine professionals.
How come it runs 2,1bar boost with these power levels? On a EA888 gen3 that would equate to ~470hp/600Nm, GPF included. Or is 2,1bar just an absolute peak figure for high hot conditions in order to keep the power up even then?
Port flow and cam durations will not be comparable for starters. Also pressure losses in the intake / charge air / exhaust systems, although both M-B and Audi benchmark very well for both, particularly intake systems. How come it runs 2,1bar boost with these power levels? On a EA888 gen3 that would equate to ~470hp/600Nm, GPF included. Or is 2,1bar just an absolute peak figure for high hot conditions in order to keep the power up even then?
Miller cycle engines will need those sorts of boost levels (and higher) to make less power, but do it at Lambda 1 over the entire speed / load range. I imagine if M-B want to continue selling this in 5 years or so it will need water injection or need to grow in capacity substantially.
Water Fairy said:
It is impressive how the boundries are being moved constantly but for a little perspective, there have been 1.0 litre bikes producing around 200bhp without a turbo for some time now. Sure, they're not likely to do 100k on the daily grind but they are reliable.
Personally I'd prefer a 6 or 8 sound track to accompany my 421bhp.
Sure, but drop even two of them in a normal-weight car and it will be completely gutless and slower than a 1.0 Polo until revs rise to screaming, try to slowly make progress up an incline, get up a garage ramp even, and you just won't be able to.Personally I'd prefer a 6 or 8 sound track to accompany my 421bhp.
Driver101 said:
What family sized cars weigh 1000kg? Even a Fiesta ST is nearly 1300kg.
1300kg EU weight perhaps, kerb it's 1200kg about if you don't spec options that weigh. This A45S is awd and will be around 1550-1650kg kerb depending on equipment if it's similar to the A35 with an added 50kg ish for the additional coolers and extra sofisticated awd. The CLA45 estate version I might covet (in case I want 4wd) will be like 50kg more again... If that seems heavy, a mere 250hp R32 has been weighed in at more than 1600kg kerb, so it ain't that bad either...
I do get Dazzssport. Objectively seen disregarding marketing segmentation and how these have changed, the refinement, space, luxury and speed makes the A45 a GT. The AMG one called GT is actually more like a very quick and dynamic limousine. For me too, hot hatches may certainly become lighter again, losing some refinement and going down the weight spiral. A Golf Clubsport S but with a rear seat and a lighter engine, and then 100kg knocked of that again with better lightweight design again.
Loved my Swift Sport and the new ones is a fun daily drive also, surprisingly refined but the light weight keeps the fun in it. But they are tiny cars if you expect something practical. But as a 'sportscar' ie a 2 seater, they are huge. Can do some mods to make it a bit more raw and push 250hp from that...
Once you go past 1300kg ish, you need a lot more power to make it 'fun'...
TwinExit said:
I would wait until the car is officially launched and the actual real on road power/torque numbers are confirmed for UK use.
Peak torque (370 lbs/ft ) appears just to be within the pump unleaded fuel limits for a 2 litre.
Reliability at these touted power/torque levels all lies in the knock resistance of the fuel available at the forecourt.
Mine is 100lbft more than that on SUL, 170lbft more with a 20% methanol mix.Peak torque (370 lbs/ft ) appears just to be within the pump unleaded fuel limits for a 2 litre.
Reliability at these touted power/torque levels all lies in the knock resistance of the fuel available at the forecourt.
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