RE: Be glad the Supra exists at all | PH Footnote

RE: Be glad the Supra exists at all | PH Footnote

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CedricN

819 posts

144 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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I don't get it really, the gt86 twins sold in pretty huge numbers for a sports car and won a massive amounts of tests and awards when it was released. What more can you expect for a reasonably priced sports car these days.

Its sad that the halo effect is getting less important, that is something i heard or seen at other manufacturers aswell.

CABC

5,531 posts

100 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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rockin said:
All we need to hear now from the PH oracles and gurus driving enthusiasts is,
  • where's that new TVR? and
  • where's that new Lotus?

cerb4.5lee

30,185 posts

179 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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ocrx8 said:
Lee, considering you thought the S54 and S65 lacked grunt, I don’t think a GT86 is for you!
You make a very good point!! biggrin

E65Ross

34,944 posts

211 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all
ocrx8 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
The GT86 was on my radar when I was looking to buy my 370Z and I'm a really big fan of the GT86/BRZ recipe. They are cars that I would love to have one day for sure. If the Supra eventually gets offered with a manual gearbox then that would be in with a shout too in the future.
Lee, considering you thought the S54 and S65 lacked grunt, I don’t think a GT86 is for you!
Let him, he loves buying cars he hates so he can moan about it later hehe

Deerfoot

4,897 posts

183 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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bozzy. said:
Well said that man!

P.S I’ve got half a day at Thruxton with the car this month. Looking forward to going would be an understatement.

Edited by bozzy. on Sunday 9th June 08:07
I work at Thruxton, I'll keep an eye out for it.

NDNDNDND

2,000 posts

182 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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sidesauce said:
robemcdonald said:
Car enthusiasts will never be happy.

Manufacturers like BMW churn out monstrosities like the X7 because they appeal to the mass market. The people who will actually spend the thick end of £100k on a 4x4 status symbol.
We moan because no one is listening to what the enthusiast wants.
A manufacturer like Toyota decide to build something for the enthusiast and gets a largely negative response.

You can see why most marques are not too worried about “halo” models.
Absolutely agree. Enthusiasts seem to forget that manufacturers are primarily motivated and interested in making money and as it's their number one priority, pretty much every decision they make is based upon that fact.
That's completely untrue, though. It's completely-stupidly-obvious that car manufacturer's need to make money and nobody thinks anything else.

The frustration comes from what does actually make money, which are sadly cross-overs and automatics that appeal to people that don't want to have fun. Frustration also comes when manufacturers make conservative decisions, such as supplying the A110 and Supra in Auto-only and switching the 1-series to FWD.

OBVIOUSLY these are hard-nosed business decisions that are based on market-research and sales statistics, but it's still frustrating to see them marginalising the enthusiast market in favour of 'the safe bet'.

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all
CedricN said:
I don't get it really, the gt86 twins sold in pretty huge numbers for a sports car and won a massive amounts of tests and awards when it was released. What more can you expect for a reasonably priced sports car these days.

Not very big sales in the UK though Cedric if you compare it to other coupes like the Audi TT etc

The ageing Opel Manta sold more cars in the UK in its last year of sales than the GT86 managed in its first 3 years on sale combined in the UK. Both coupes were up against faster hot hatches at the same price in their respective eras


Plus if you read the quote below from the opening article post I think it only just was considered a success worldwide

Article said:
Seven years after its launch, says Tada-san, the GT86 is considered a successful model among Toyota command only by the slimmest margin. And that's a car whose development costs were shared with Subaru. Had it cost only a little more to develop and build, or had sales been only a little weaker, the GT86 would have been classified a failure for ever more

Cloudy147

2,705 posts

182 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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Sounds like Toyota made the GT86, as a fairly slow, rubbish-to-look-at and expensive sports car which just scraped into the black on the balance sheet; a car that was quite disappointing to enthusiasts at launch when compared to the concept, for those reasons (regardless of the steer of the thing).

Then they made a rebadged Z4 and called it a Supra, which looks like a poor replica of the awesome concept car. It's as transparent as badge engineering gets, and sounds like it too will probably just scrape into profit over its lifecycle.

PH thinks we should count ourselves lucky. Meanwhile Porsche storm ahead with profits and sports cars, and at the lower end Mazda have cornered the market with the MX5.

I just don't think Toyota 'get it', and as an enthusiast it's that which frustrates because, for a time in the 90s, they 'got it' better than any other brand out there.

If other manufacturers can do it and get it right, why can't Toyota? I personally think they are too averse to invest in a high risk strategy and so go half-arsed and just scrape the finish line with a bead of sweat and a sigh of relief.

I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either.

Sandpit Steve

9,885 posts

73 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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Itsallicanafford said:
I can understand all this hard nose economics but essentially I think it is short sighted. I know it sounds bad, but my current family bus is a Lexus ES 300h FSport. A car which is pretty much as far removed from an LFA as you can get. But I like the fast they have a similar sliding taco and use the same graphics on the taco. Chalk up 2 sales to Toyota as this was also a reason i bought my IS before the ES.
Was wondering how long it would take someone to mention the LFA.

THAT is a true halo car, on which it’s possible to take a loss on the project, because of the trickle-down new technology, marketing and engineering. Same goes with the Veyron.

A £30k or £50k series production model (let’s call them GT86 and Supra) on the other hand, has a much harder job to justify the development expenditure against every sale.

Look how Nissan have kept the 370Z ticking over for a decade now, those fixed costs slowly amortising, and even Porsche have had a sales disaster with the four-cylinder CayBox and need to decide what to do with it (6cyl, n/a manual option please!).

cerb4.5lee

30,185 posts

179 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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E65Ross said:
ocrx8 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
The GT86 was on my radar when I was looking to buy my 370Z and I'm a really big fan of the GT86/BRZ recipe. They are cars that I would love to have one day for sure. If the Supra eventually gets offered with a manual gearbox then that would be in with a shout too in the future.
Lee, considering you thought the S54 and S65 lacked grunt, I don’t think a GT86 is for you!
Let him, he loves buying cars he hates so he can moan about it later hehe
I'm not that bad am I!? biglaugh

I do like a good moan though...so I will give you that! smile

Addymk2

334 posts

171 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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Cloudy147 said:
Sounds like Toyota made the GT86, as a fairly slow, rubbish-to-look-at and expensive sports car which just scraped into the black on the balance sheet; a car that was quite disappointing to enthusiasts at launch when compared to the concept, for those reasons (regardless of the steer of the thing).

I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either.
Drive one on the road. They get it. The only reason enthusiasts moan is the perceived lack of grunt. It's plenty on the road as long as you're willing to drive it at it's peak. It reminds me of my DC2 and that's high praise indeed. It differs from the DC2 in terms of driveability, the DC2 felt utterly gutless unless in VTEC, whereas the GT86 manages to cope.

Don't get me wrong I'm contemplating a supercharger in the future, but when have any Japanese performance cars been released (LFA aside) that aren't better after some personalisation?

If you can try and spend a day with one, if it doesn't change your mind I'd be surprised.

This is a great review by Chris Harris, involving a 370z, a Cayman S and a GT86;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4

My previous car, albeit at approx 300bhp and similar levels of torque felt too quick to really exploit at the top end unless I was coming down a slip road or autobahning.

CABC

5,531 posts

100 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all
Cloudy147 said:
Sounds like Toyota made the GT86, as a fairly slow, rubbish-to-look-at and expensive sports car which just scraped into the black on the balance sheet; a car that was quite disappointing to enthusiasts at launch when compared to the concept, for those reasons (regardless of the steer of the thing).

Then they made a rebadged Z4 and called it a Supra, which looks like a poor replica of the awesome concept car. It's as transparent as badge engineering gets, and sounds like it too will probably just scrape into profit over its lifecycle.

PH thinks we should count ourselves lucky. Meanwhile Porsche storm ahead with profits and sports cars, and at the lower end Mazda have cornered the market with the MX5.

I just don't think Toyota 'get it', and as an enthusiast it's that which frustrates because, for a time in the 90s, they 'got it' better than any other brand out there.

If other manufacturers can do it and get it right, why can't Toyota? I personally think they are too averse to invest in a high risk strategy and so go half-arsed and just scrape the finish line with a bead of sweat and a sigh of relief.

I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either.
i take issue with nearly everything you've said! i'll address each of your paragraphs:

- i'll debate how 'enthusiastic' detractors of the 86 are. it had a limp reception in the UK where it was relatively high priced compared to fast hatches, true. it's a bespoke platform, addressing a particular formula that is not readily available in the market. it's not to everyone's taste, but enthusiasts should 'get it', understand it. Anyway, that one's been done to death.

- Supra is more than just a rebadged Z4. this is more lazy PH criticism. i haven't even seen one myself, but all the reports i've read offer some criticisms but clearly state the car is quite different to a Z4, and is also very good. there are concerns for sure. i can't wait to drive one myself. True, it might not be pure Toyota, but in 2019 that's where we are.

- Porsche make lots of money from SUVs and a few very well optioned sports cars. They're not really in the 50k sports market anymore. it was interesting to see the 718 Evo tested against the A110 needed 20k of suspension and other mods to compete.
The MX5 is a great sports car, agreed.

- if Toyota don't 'get it', who does? BMW, Porsche et al have all left the reasonably priced sports car market to seek more profit elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that, but who builds 25 - 55k sports cars? who builds cars that feel great to drive, rather than just drive fast?

- to quote "I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either". these are your priorities. mine involve handling, feedback, control, feel and fun. all subjective i realise. but they're not easily satisfied by a hot hatch. i'm one of a dwindling market i suspect.

i have no interest in a forum battle, but your post just struck me. There's so little from Europe in terms of reasonably priced sports cars. Wonderful that the A110 got to market. 4C stuttered, but they tried. America doesn't even try, not their thing. (btw, although muscle cars aren't my thing, i can appreciate their existence)

cerb4.5lee

30,185 posts

179 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all
Addymk2 said:
This is a great review by Chris Harris, involving a 370z, a Cayman S and a GT86;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4
I don't like that review because Chris basically says that the 370Z is a pile of turd! frown

It did make me wonder though if I'd made the correct decision going for the 370Z over the GT86...because he doesn't have a bad word to say about the GT86. smile

I don't think me and Chris think alike though...because he loved his E92 M3 and I thought mine was a pile of turd! hehe

Itsallicanafford

2,759 posts

158 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all
If you want some tenuous LFA links to Lexus’s current line up, read this...

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/lexus-nx-details/

That’s how to milk a halo car

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
quotequote all


a) If Toyota had wanted to achieve more favourable sales figures for the GT86, they would have chosen as designer somebody other than the guy who designs shelves for big box retailers.

b) Concerned about the range of affordable sports cars and performance cars? Move to the left side of the Atlantic. It's 1968 redux over here! A veritable kaleidoscope o' motoring fun.



Alias218

1,485 posts

161 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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I saw a lorry load of Supra’s being transported through France last week and I must say they look very good in the flesh. The only thing that puts me off them is the auto box, which is a big no-no for me regardless of how good it is.

I hope to see more semi-bespoke sports car platforms being produced in the future.

Darryl247W

564 posts

122 months

Sunday 9th June 2019
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I've much admiration for Toyota and Tada-san for bringing us both cars, in the face of such criticism from the enthusiasts they sought to satisfy.
Surely any other manufacturer with a glimmer of a sportscar idea has thought twice having seen un-informed forum chatter.

I've lost count of how many times I've watched Harris's GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman video. It defines what I want from a car review. Finally I put my money where my mouth is and bought a 2016 BRZ a couple of months ago. I admit it, since then I have giggled like Harris while behind the wheel.

mrclav

1,280 posts

222 months

Monday 10th June 2019
quotequote all
NDNDNDND said:
That's completely untrue, though. It's completely-stupidly-obvious that car manufacturer's need to make money and nobody thinks anything else.

The frustration comes from what does actually make money, which are sadly cross-overs and automatics that appeal to people that don't want to have fun. Frustration also comes when manufacturers make conservative decisions, such as supplying the A110 and Supra in Auto-only and switching the 1-series to FWD.

OBVIOUSLY these are hard-nosed business decisions that are based on market-research and sales statistics, but it's still frustrating to see them marginalising the enthusiast market in favour of 'the safe bet'.
If manufacturers operated their businesses using your logic, several of them would no longer exist. Maybe then you'd be even more frustrated and complain that there is zero choice? The market dictates their decisions and as a result the enthusiast will ALWAYS be sidelined. People in general just do not care to 'have fun' in their cars, their priorities lie elsewhere. Life isn't fair but it is what it is.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Monday 10th June 2019
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It's how business operates

The whole auto industry will go through a vast and costly change in the next 10-20 years can't afford have many loss making small volume pet projects

sege

552 posts

221 months

Monday 10th June 2019
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EDLT said:
If it's so difficult then how do Mazda and Nissan do it?
Agreed.

Maybe its not only giant motoring conglomerate's that have to justify everything financially, I guess motoring journalists do also in terms of the amount of research they put into their articles (Just joking Dan! Love your work! <3). Because this sounds like only one side of the story. How did the (mentioned in the article) Alpine ever get into production then? What about the 4c? ..if the GT86/BRZ, a volume seller that you see lots of on the road, that was co-developed, only just squeeze itself into justifiable existence? The GT86 is also sold in the US right? Unlike the Alpine.
It would have been very interesting to read some counterpoints from the people behind other cars like those ones. It sounds like there is probably a bit of corporate face saving rolled into this otherwise realistic sounding argument.

I still think the 86/BRZ was an oh-so-close but just missed opportunity anyway. So annoyingly close to genuine greatness. But...now there are a few around on the used market supercharging a nice one to 300bhp sounds like it would make one of the best daily liveable modern sports cars around for the all in price. I would really really tempted if I was in the market for something like that.

From the reviews the new supra sounds the same deal as the GT86: Fine, not much wrong with it. Just not perfectly resolved. That's more the point. What's the excuse for building nearly modern classic sports cars but failing repeatedly? Why not go that little extra....Then you really do get that extra 'halo effect' the bean counters love thrown in too!

Edited by sege on Monday 10th June 05:56