RE: Be glad the Supra exists at all | PH Footnote
Discussion
EDLT said:
If it's so difficult then how do Mazda and Nissan do it?
It is because they have personnel there who still have confidence in building performance cars in today's climate, and remain identifiable to its heritage...i.e the Nissan GT-R shows linage to the R32-R34 generation, the current MX5 remains true to its predecessors. Toyota OTOH just want the Supra brand to appeal to the VAG/BMW demographic with minimal capital & risk - if the MKV fails, they just kill the car off and carry on focusing on globally relevant vehicles such as their line of minicabs and pick ups.
It has so annoyed me since the official launch of the Supra that people have moaned about it. We all know the major gripes.
"It's really a BMW"
"It has no manual option"
"It's not a RWD GT-R beater"
And I've even had some commenters saying that they'd rather it was a £100k or £150k car without those complaints than a £50k with. That is the sort of thing that could only be said by someone who had £100k to burn or was never going to afford either in the first place and just likes playing top trumps.
If you want an enthusiast car to be made, you have to put your money where your mouth is to some extent.
"It's really a BMW"
"It has no manual option"
"It's not a RWD GT-R beater"
And I've even had some commenters saying that they'd rather it was a £100k or £150k car without those complaints than a £50k with. That is the sort of thing that could only be said by someone who had £100k to burn or was never going to afford either in the first place and just likes playing top trumps.
If you want an enthusiast car to be made, you have to put your money where your mouth is to some extent.
It all sounds like excuses and marketing nonsense to me. Plenty of car manufactures are making sports cars, and plenty of them don't have a name as emotive as "supra" to sell them on the back of. I can't imagine the new Z4 would've been cancelled if Toyota weren't involved....
They've released a decent sports car, because BMW can make decent sports cars. It was never going to be a bad car because BMW don't make bad cars.
They saw a cheap opportunity to sell a car on the back of a name - fine. I'm not going to pretend it's anything else though.
They've released a decent sports car, because BMW can make decent sports cars. It was never going to be a bad car because BMW don't make bad cars.
They saw a cheap opportunity to sell a car on the back of a name - fine. I'm not going to pretend it's anything else though.
redroadster said:
All they had to do was turbo the gt86 give it 350 bhp ,wilder bodywork called it supra model sold it for 40 grand win win ,it's already got the handling sorted it would have been far cheaper to develop hence sell for less and help the base cars development costs .
A GT86 with a turbo would be pretty much my ideal car. We know that it handles very well and its kerbweight is very reasonable too. I would even be happy with around 250bhp, and that is what my 200sx had with a similar kerbweight and that was pretty much perfect for me. MarJay said:
If you want an enthusiast car to be made, you have to put your money where your mouth is to some extent.
Exactly. Internet chatter isn't worth a row of beans to car manufacturers. They need real customers with real cash. I find it astounding the huge amounts of money people will spend on an SUV compared with the cost of most moderns sports cars.
rockin said:
cerb4.5lee said:
A GT86 with a turbo would be pretty much my ideal car.
So a 300bhp base Cayman appears to tick all the boxes.... 
I thought Caymans were a bit on the heavy side but I've just checked and its 1335kg for the base model so not too bad at all.
Can you get a Cayman with a LSD? They are a personal must have hence my liking of the GT86/370Z .
cerb4.5lee said:
Indeed it does!
I thought Caymans were a bit on the heavy side but I've just checked and its 1335kg for the base model so not too bad at all.
Can you get a Cayman with a LSD? They are a personal must have hence my liking of the GT86/370Z .
a brilliant car no doubt. but hardly the same price and certainly not the same TCO.I thought Caymans were a bit on the heavy side but I've just checked and its 1335kg for the base model so not too bad at all.
Can you get a Cayman with a LSD? They are a personal must have hence my liking of the GT86/370Z .
there isn't that much choice for real sports cars so why do Porsche lovers (eg rockin) always dismiss any alternative?
they serve up different experiences, and more importantly for most is that they require different budgets.
Cloudy147 said:
Sounds like Toyota made the GT86, as a fairly slow, rubbish-to-look-at and expensive sports car which just scraped into the black on the balance sheet; a car that was quite disappointing to enthusiasts at launch when compared to the concept, for those reasons (regardless of the steer of the thing).
Then they made a rebadged Z4 and called it a Supra, which looks like a poor replica of the awesome concept car. It's as transparent as badge engineering gets, and sounds like it too will probably just scrape into profit over its lifecycle.
PH thinks we should count ourselves lucky. Meanwhile Porsche storm ahead with profits and sports cars, and at the lower end Mazda have cornered the market with the MX5.
I just don't think Toyota 'get it', and as an enthusiast it's that which frustrates because, for a time in the 90s, they 'got it' better than any other brand out there.
If other manufacturers can do it and get it right, why can't Toyota? I personally think they are too averse to invest in a high risk strategy and so go half-arsed and just scrape the finish line with a bead of sweat and a sigh of relief.
I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either.
I agree with this comment.Then they made a rebadged Z4 and called it a Supra, which looks like a poor replica of the awesome concept car. It's as transparent as badge engineering gets, and sounds like it too will probably just scrape into profit over its lifecycle.
PH thinks we should count ourselves lucky. Meanwhile Porsche storm ahead with profits and sports cars, and at the lower end Mazda have cornered the market with the MX5.
I just don't think Toyota 'get it', and as an enthusiast it's that which frustrates because, for a time in the 90s, they 'got it' better than any other brand out there.
If other manufacturers can do it and get it right, why can't Toyota? I personally think they are too averse to invest in a high risk strategy and so go half-arsed and just scrape the finish line with a bead of sweat and a sigh of relief.
I'm not saying those cars aren't good ones if you actually drive them, but as an enthusiast who hasn't, they disappointed me as much as anyone else for their looks, costs and on paper performance - and so am not that interested in driving either.
GT86 was hyped because of manual, rwd and light weight....
I'd rather get a used E86 Z4 Coupe with i6, manual, rwd, pretty light weight and it also goes.
GT86 did not sell well either.
The new Supra - that's not Toyota, that's more than 50% BMW, platform, engine, interior - all BMW.
Well, I rather get the M2 then.
At the same time the tiny Mazda makes a most raced across the world convertible - MX-5. Which also sells, and it is 100% Mazda.
Meanwhile Mazda develops new engine technology as well.
I was in awe by the old Supra, I am absolutely indifferent that the new so called Supra exists.
rockin said:
MarJay said:
If you want an enthusiast car to be made, you have to put your money where your mouth is to some extent.
Exactly. Internet chatter isn't worth a row of beans to car manufacturers. They need real customers with real cash. I find it astounding the huge amounts of money people will spend on an SUV compared with the cost of most moderns sports cars.
And if you stick a strong engine in one you will be able to enjoy sportcar acceleration and overtake easily as well, which is also what most sportcar drivers do when they drive on public roads.
So, powerful SUV is much more of an all-rounder, and therefore a lot of that money is justified.
Yes, some sportcar drivers go mad and pretend to be race drivers on public roads, but that either ends in a speeding ticker, a prison sentence or a tragedy (the late Paul Walker comes to mind).
Really interesting read and actually should push everyone to re-evaluate cars that have been critized in the past. As an example the now canned Alfa Romeo 3C Flawed, yes, some cheap interior fittings, yes, but carbon tub and bespoke suspension. When the cost of development are factored in, this is pure exotica that is normally to be found in the hypercar market. But, I also think this applies to the hot hatch world. How lucky are we to have our RS; ST; GTI; R; N etc models. Again the margins must be tight and development costs high.
The biggest problem has been Toyota using the Supra name and feeding journos all sorts of misty-eyed rubbish about the car to whip up an odd motoring circlejerk.
I get the sense that enthusiasts would have viewed this in a totally different way if they hadn't been promised the world and then slowly realised it wasn't all truthful..
If Toyota had been pragmatic and covered the facts of life earlier on, and instead pushed the aspects of the car they they have genuinely made their own a lot more people would respect the approach. Even things like coming out and accepting the dials and ICE are nothing to do with them for example but then pointing to something like the tuning of the gearbox being the best of its type.
I mean, read that Harris article as an example - that reaction comes from being force-fed press releases and lectures that just aren't true then expected to buy into the hype. This is exactly why a chat over a whiskey is more authentic, and why this article is worthwhile.
In truth Toyota PR need shooting for their part in this and the coaching given to the engineers to spin things a certain way.
I get the sense that enthusiasts would have viewed this in a totally different way if they hadn't been promised the world and then slowly realised it wasn't all truthful..
If Toyota had been pragmatic and covered the facts of life earlier on, and instead pushed the aspects of the car they they have genuinely made their own a lot more people would respect the approach. Even things like coming out and accepting the dials and ICE are nothing to do with them for example but then pointing to something like the tuning of the gearbox being the best of its type.
I mean, read that Harris article as an example - that reaction comes from being force-fed press releases and lectures that just aren't true then expected to buy into the hype. This is exactly why a chat over a whiskey is more authentic, and why this article is worthwhile.
In truth Toyota PR need shooting for their part in this and the coaching given to the engineers to spin things a certain way.
Toyota should have just rebooted the Celica brand again and marketed it as rising like the Phoenix from the flames in RWD guise again.
The Celica brand failed and rebooted a few times throughout its tenure, that had this Z4/supra thing been branded a modern "Celica" and it failed, no one would have cared less.
The Supra brand however, was given this stardom, halo-esque stature, mainly off the back of the F&F franchise. If the brand was ever rebooted, it had massive boots to fill. That FT-01 CONCEPT was what should have been. All they needed to do was update absolutely everything about the jig, and tooling, and design of the already r&d'd and proven Lexus LFA and all they had to do was production limit run a modern Supra. A safe bet with very little to do. Could have done a 2017 Ford GT skunkworks type random AF reveal and break the internet. (Talking about the initial reveal, not the boring production aftermath drip feeds!!
Instead, the Japs sided with the boring Germans. Let them rule the roost. Let them dictate the direction in which their car was going, and then the Japs stepped in, used tracing paper and half arse copied the Germans work and fettled things to suit themselves with minimal effort!!! And at the end of it all, slap a piece of nostalgia on it. And then pointlessly drip feed absolute nonsense for a few years and bore potential suitors into being uninterested in buying one. Then come the actual reveal, they put the proverbial nail in the coffin for a lot of potential buyers.
Toyota, you absolutely effed up with this one. Admit it. Remove it from the shelves immediately. It's the only way it will ever become the hit you envisaged, when the product is limited now and 20yrs time only a handful are left.
The Celica brand failed and rebooted a few times throughout its tenure, that had this Z4/supra thing been branded a modern "Celica" and it failed, no one would have cared less.
The Supra brand however, was given this stardom, halo-esque stature, mainly off the back of the F&F franchise. If the brand was ever rebooted, it had massive boots to fill. That FT-01 CONCEPT was what should have been. All they needed to do was update absolutely everything about the jig, and tooling, and design of the already r&d'd and proven Lexus LFA and all they had to do was production limit run a modern Supra. A safe bet with very little to do. Could have done a 2017 Ford GT skunkworks type random AF reveal and break the internet. (Talking about the initial reveal, not the boring production aftermath drip feeds!!
Instead, the Japs sided with the boring Germans. Let them rule the roost. Let them dictate the direction in which their car was going, and then the Japs stepped in, used tracing paper and half arse copied the Germans work and fettled things to suit themselves with minimal effort!!! And at the end of it all, slap a piece of nostalgia on it. And then pointlessly drip feed absolute nonsense for a few years and bore potential suitors into being uninterested in buying one. Then come the actual reveal, they put the proverbial nail in the coffin for a lot of potential buyers.
Toyota, you absolutely effed up with this one. Admit it. Remove it from the shelves immediately. It's the only way it will ever become the hit you envisaged, when the product is limited now and 20yrs time only a handful are left.
Proper drivers cars like the supra and GT86 get lost because most people are only interested in 0-60 flat out, and couldn’t actually handle a decent driving car without any of the traction aids on, that’s why you only ever see bad men doing drag racing around Birmingham in E63s and RS3s etc because they are fast in a straight line and the electronics won’t let you f
k it all up.
It’s a shame, people who actually can enjoy driving for the trill of a good corner, a good gear change and a non turbo rev range are few and far between. Which is why cars like the GT86 need to be cherished, it’s the same formula as the MX5.
k it all up. It’s a shame, people who actually can enjoy driving for the trill of a good corner, a good gear change and a non turbo rev range are few and far between. Which is why cars like the GT86 need to be cherished, it’s the same formula as the MX5.
Very interesting article, altough I'm not sure I agree that Tada's conclusion is always the best way. In the end, this means putting product design entirely in the hands of the accountants.
And that in turn means no experimentation or risk taking -- despite market research often getting it wrong (in both directions). VW under this regime would e.g. never have made the GTI. Not listening to accountants can sometimes make a lot of money...
And that in turn means no experimentation or risk taking -- despite market research often getting it wrong (in both directions). VW under this regime would e.g. never have made the GTI. Not listening to accountants can sometimes make a lot of money...
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