RE: New 3 Series Touring revealed

[Court_S]

I quite like it, prefer it to the saloon but can never understand why BMW always seem to release new cars in such awful colours. They’re all manky!

It’ll be interesting to see if they’ve managed to fit a sensible ride height to an X Drive. The F series cars were all way too high once X Drive was spec’d plus the 335d I drove was a bit wobbly.

[nickfrog]

Fastdruid said:

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

Shame there isn't a choice although it's a family road car, not a track weapon or a fun sports car so not sure it matters that much. I would still prefer that to a Focus Estate... even in manual.

[anonymous-user]

As has been said, the Alpina will be awesome.

[Dale487]

Fastdruid said:

Dale487 said:

Harry_523 said:

Greg the Fish said:

Coming to 2mm from your rear bumper soon

The auto/manual debate is a bit moot in estates, only need to look in the classifieds to see how few people bought. I was a die hard manual fan but stopped caring about a week into big auto estate ownership.

Only offering 4wd on the M340i is much more a shame to me however, lets hope Xdrive + MSport diff still does RWD things. As it stands the most powerful RWD 3 and 5 you can get are the 30d models which is a bit disappointing.

There's no manual petrol option for the saloon either.

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

Anyway, scratch the 3-series touring off my potential next car list as well. Looks like I'm down to the Focus ST Estate...er and that's it.

Sadly "the ultimate driving machines" has neither been the tag line or true for a while.

When I bought my Leon estate, it was very hard to find an non-diesel, non-DSG estate - I guess this is going to get harder in the future.

My current potential next car list is; i30N Fastback, Focus ST Line or ST, New Mazda 3 & maybe the Proceed GT - I hope I can add the new Golf & Leon to that list but what whether it's still an estate or becomes a hatch it'll definitely be a petrol & manual.

[E65Ross]

Fastdruid said:

Dale487 said:

Harry_523 said:

Greg the Fish said:

Coming to 2mm from your rear bumper soon

The auto/manual debate is a bit moot in estates, only need to look in the classifieds to see how few people bought. I was a die hard manual fan but stopped caring about a week into big auto estate ownership.

Only offering 4wd on the M340i is much more a shame to me however, lets hope Xdrive + MSport diff still does RWD things. As it stands the most powerful RWD 3 and 5 you can get are the 30d models which is a bit disappointing.

There's no manual petrol option for the saloon either.

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

There's more to driving than having a manual gearbox. If they offered a manual, I'd bet less than 5% would be sold as manuals, so hardly worth their time. They still get reviews as being the best to drive in their segment though....

[Fastdruid]

nickfrog said:

Fastdruid said:

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

Shame there isn't a choice although it's a family road car, not a track weapon or a fun sports car so not sure it matters that much. I would still prefer that to a Focus Estate... even in manual.

A couple of issues there.

1) If you don't care about driving, why bother with a BMW in the first place?
2) If it's just going to be a family road car then why not an MPV? Far more practical *unless* you care about the dynamics of how it drives.
2) You're not always going to be "with the family" so if you enjoy driving then unless you have multiple cars your car has to be good to drive.

I just don't get it. The whole point of an Estate over the MPV or SUV is that it's 99% of a normal saloon but with a bigger boot. ie it handles like a normal car but if you don't *care* about the "driving experience" then why bother? Why *not* just go crossover/MPV/SUV?

[Dale487]

E65Ross said:

Fastdruid said:

Dale487 said:

Harry_523 said:

Greg the Fish said:

Coming to 2mm from your rear bumper soon

The auto/manual debate is a bit moot in estates, only need to look in the classifieds to see how few people bought. I was a die hard manual fan but stopped caring about a week into big auto estate ownership.

Only offering 4wd on the M340i is much more a shame to me however, lets hope Xdrive + MSport diff still does RWD things. As it stands the most powerful RWD 3 and 5 you can get are the 30d models which is a bit disappointing.

There's no manual petrol option for the saloon either.

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

There's more to driving than having a manual gearbox. If they offered a manual, I'd bet less than 5% would be sold as manuals, so hardly worth their time. They still get reviews as being the best to drive in their segment though....

Sadly you're right about the c5% of sales and the 3 series is still the default choice despite not being the stand out car it once was.

[E65Ross]

Fastdruid said:

nickfrog said:

Fastdruid said:

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

Shame there isn't a choice although it's a family road car, not a track weapon or a fun sports car so not sure it matters that much. I would still prefer that to a Focus Estate... even in manual.

A couple of issues there.

1) If you don't care about driving, why bother with a BMW in the first place?
2) If it's just going to be a family road car then why not an MPV? Far more practical *unless* you care about the dynamics of how it drives.
2) You're not always going to be "with the family" so if you enjoy driving then unless you have multiple cars your car has to be good to drive.

I just don't get it. The whole point of an Estate over the MPV or SUV is that it's 99% of a normal saloon but with a bigger boot. ie it handles like a normal car but if you don't *care* about the "driving experience" then why bother? Why *not* just go crossover/MPV/SUV?

What if you do care about driving but don't care about a manual box? Yes, it does happen!

What if, now this may be hard to imagine, for 99% of your driving an automatic is the best choice, so naturally you opt for an auto, yet you still want a pretty practical load lugger that doesn't handle poorly? May I present the 3 series touring?

[Limpet]

I ran an F31 320d auto for 2 years as a company car.

Engine (old N47 unit) was agricultural sounding (and feeling), and the interior was a bit low-rent in places.

Otherwise, I couldn't honestly fault it. Lively, ridiculously economical, practical (accommodated a family of four and 2 spaniels without any issues), flawlessly reliable, and a chassis more than capable of making a good bit of road enjoyable.

The rough old N47 engine is long gone, and the new interiors look a lot better (in photos at least) than the old car's. If they haven't spoiled the rest of it, I reckon this will be a cracking real world car.

[nickfrog]

Fastdruid said:

nickfrog said:

Fastdruid said:

It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.

Shame there isn't a choice although it's a family road car, not a track weapon or a fun sports car so not sure it matters that much. I would still prefer that to a Focus Estate... even in manual.

A couple of issues there.

1) If you don't care about driving, why bother with a BMW in the first place?
2) If it's just going to be a family road car then why not an MPV? Far more practical *unless* you care about the dynamics of how it drives.
2) You're not always going to be "with the family" so if you enjoy driving then unless you have multiple cars your car has to be good to drive.

I just don't get it. The whole point of an Estate over the MPV or SUV is that it's 99% of a normal saloon but with a bigger boot. ie it handles like a normal car but if you don't *care* about the "driving experience" then why bother? Why *not* just go crossover/MPV/SUV?

Why wouldn't I have a BMW if I don't care about the road driving experience? I agree a MPV or SUV makes more sense though, which could well be a BMW too incidentally. Road driving for me in SE England is essentially about pot holes, speed limits and congestion, whether I am alone or not.

Which is perhaps why, by contrast, I enjoy track days and can't understand why most PHers who *care* about the "driving experience" don't take part in them.

Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 12th June 14:59

[neverraced]

I'm in my second F31 335d M Sport Touring, both being X Drive. The suspension is much improved over the first one, and the 8 speed Auto with flappy paddles is just downright superb; I was a dyed in the wool Manual person but the Auto is an absolute joy. And yes, I do indeed drive an Estate because I don't want the barge like handling of an SUV.

But why oh why no 6 cylinder diesel in the new shape Touring, that's a shocker? If I felt that I could get similar economy out of a 330i or something then I would consider it, but realistically how close to the 40mpg that I get at present am I likely to get? About 50% motorway work, 25k miles per annum.

[RS Grant]

I think it looks great, the front end is nice (particularly if you compare it to the other new BMWs which have been launched recently!) and the interior and rear end looks good to me as well.

If there is no big diesel then I think that's an oversight.

The 340i XDrive will be a very quick car; however with the range starting in the mid-30s, I can only assume that the prices for big engine/spec models like the 340i are going to be eye watering for a 3-series.

[moffat]

neverraced said:

But why oh why no 6 cylinder diesel in the new shape Touring, that's a shocker? If I felt that I could get similar economy out of a 330i or something then I would consider it, but realistically how close to the 40mpg that I get at present am I likely to get? About 50% motorway work, 25k miles per annum.

My car (440i MPPSK) has the same engine as the M340i but without the PPF (which reduces mpg), I've averaged 26mpg over 20k miles but can easily get 40mpg on the motorway. You won't average 40mpg overall though, but I'd expect around 32-34 which is decent. The 330i isn't much different.

No M340d Estate but there will be a new S4 diesel estate with 4WD and 349bhp which you might like.

[neverraced]

Thanks. I don't do Audi I'm afraid, never had much luck with them. My last four cars have all been 3 Series 6 cylinder diesels; I can't understand why they're dropping it.

[E65Ross]

neverraced said:

Thanks. I don't do Audi I'm afraid, never had much luck with them. My last four cars have all been 3 Series 6 cylinder diesels; I can't understand why they're dropping it.

BMW typically don't release the entire engine line up at launch, so I wouldn't be worried just yet. 6 cylinder diesels are good sellers so I'd be surprised if they dropped them. I think you'll be OK

[neverraced]

E65Ross said:

BMW typically don't release the entire engine line up at launch, so I wouldn't be worried just yet. 6 cylinder diesels are good sellers so I'd be surprised if they dropped them. I think you'll be OK

Let's hope so - the new 340i will oodles of power but still substantially less torque than the 335d smoker, even disregarding the economy.......

[nickfrog]

neverraced said:

Let's hope so - the new 340i will oodles of power but still substantially less torque than the 335d smoker, even disregarding the economy.......

I reckon the lower torque will be offset by higher revs. Same result in the end, at least based on the basic equation for power, which is the relevant metric.

[E65Ross]

nickfrog said:

neverraced said:

Let's hope so - the new 340i will oodles of power but still substantially less torque than the 335d smoker, even disregarding the economy.......

I reckon the lower torque will be offset by higher revs. Same result in the end, at least based on the basic equation for power, which is the relevant metric.

Yep. You should measure power at a given % of max rpm.....providing they both are geared to the same speed in each gear....as an example the diesel may have max rpm of 4500rpm and the petrol 7000rpm, if, say, 5th gear is geared to 150mph, if both cars are doing 60mph then the petrol would be doing 2800rpm and the diesel 1800rpm. Unless the diesel produces 155% of the torque at 1800rpm as what the petrol does at 2800rpm....then the petrol will be the one accelerating quicker

[neverraced]

nickfrog said:

I reckon the lower torque will be offset by higher revs. Same result in the end, at least based on the basic equation for power, which is the relevant metric.

Yes I know; I must go and drive one of the 6 pot petrols, it's been a long time, about 16 years!

[Fastdruid]

E65Ross said:

nickfrog said:

neverraced said:

Let's hope so - the new 340i will oodles of power but still substantially less torque than the 335d smoker, even disregarding the economy.......

I reckon the lower torque will be offset by higher revs. Same result in the end, at least based on the basic equation for power, which is the relevant metric.

Yep. You should measure power at a given % of max rpm.....providing they both are geared to the same speed in each gear....as an example the diesel may have max rpm of 4500rpm and the petrol 7000rpm, if, say, 5th gear is geared to 150mph, if both cars are doing 60mph then the petrol would be doing 2800rpm and the diesel 1800rpm. Unless the diesel produces 155% of the torque at 1800rpm as what the petrol does at 2800rpm....then the petrol will be the one accelerating quicker

Assuming fairly similar states of tune and playing to their strengths the petrol will be geared lower as it can rev higher which means in effect it can run a gear (or two!) lower than the diesel for any given road speed...and that means that outside of first gear there is no torque advantage for the diesel and actually the petrol can have *more* torque at the wheels as long as you're in the appropriate gear.