RE: New 3 Series Touring revealed
Discussion
RoverP6B said:
The only reason my 540i was £1500 was mega miles, the autobox and a couple of rust blisters. You will not find a good manual 540i Sport for less than £5k now, and even that will have some serious miles on it.
My point is that there are serious deficiencies in today's BMWs in the way they look, ride, handle and drive in general. Steering devoid of feel. Subpar engines that lack refinement and offer minimal improvement in economy - certainly, an F10/11 530i with the 3.0 N52 is every bit as efficient as the 2.0 528i, but the old N52 is by far the nicer engine. What we are seeing today with BMW is the same malaise that hit Mercedes-Benz in the mid-late 1990s - the accountants and marketing men have taken over, the styling has gone to pot, the best engines have been discontinued in favour of cheaper alternatives (see also M119 vs M113, M120 vs M137) and the only reason the product still sells is the badge. If Alfa Romeo or Jaguar had come out with this or the new FWD 1er, the X1 and X2 or the 2-series Active Tourer, or fugly bloated rubbish like the X7, they'd have been crucified for them by this forum, and rightly so, but BMW can get away with murder precisely BECAUSE of the brand mythology created by the very cars that made me fall in love with BMW. They're selling badly-styled subpar product on the back of that heritage stretching from about 1970 to 2010 (roughly). From the E3 Neue Klasse through to the E60, there was an unbroken line of real drivers' cars in this approximate class of BMW vehicles (size-wise), although I'm guessing this is more the size of the E23 7er. The F10 was where it started to go wrong, with electric steering that totally lacks feel, but at least the N52 engine maintained that BMW tradition going right back to the E3.
Congratulations.My point is that there are serious deficiencies in today's BMWs in the way they look, ride, handle and drive in general. Steering devoid of feel. Subpar engines that lack refinement and offer minimal improvement in economy - certainly, an F10/11 530i with the 3.0 N52 is every bit as efficient as the 2.0 528i, but the old N52 is by far the nicer engine. What we are seeing today with BMW is the same malaise that hit Mercedes-Benz in the mid-late 1990s - the accountants and marketing men have taken over, the styling has gone to pot, the best engines have been discontinued in favour of cheaper alternatives (see also M119 vs M113, M120 vs M137) and the only reason the product still sells is the badge. If Alfa Romeo or Jaguar had come out with this or the new FWD 1er, the X1 and X2 or the 2-series Active Tourer, or fugly bloated rubbish like the X7, they'd have been crucified for them by this forum, and rightly so, but BMW can get away with murder precisely BECAUSE of the brand mythology created by the very cars that made me fall in love with BMW. They're selling badly-styled subpar product on the back of that heritage stretching from about 1970 to 2010 (roughly). From the E3 Neue Klasse through to the E60, there was an unbroken line of real drivers' cars in this approximate class of BMW vehicles (size-wise), although I'm guessing this is more the size of the E23 7er. The F10 was where it started to go wrong, with electric steering that totally lacks feel, but at least the N52 engine maintained that BMW tradition going right back to the E3.
That’s a 2019 record for most PH cliches in one post.
What’s the weather like in the 20th century these days?
At the risk of dragging this thread back to the origin of it (yes I know, in a most un-PH way), I haven't commented on the look of the new one - that's because I, like most I'd imagine, drive an estate car because I don't want to be swaying around in an SUV (or looking down by nose from one), and a saloon just doesn't contain all the mtb'ing gubbins that I carry around all the time. IMHO, it's a bit like houses, it's lovely to have a nice looking one from the outside, but you don't live in your garden looking at it, (although it is very nice to have a nice view from it).
So it is what it is, again, IMHO, it looks a bit of a mess with all those side swages, and I'd always prefer less shiny bits than that, but as long as it continues to deliver for me as the driver what the F31 delivers in spades ie. tows a heavy Ifor Williams trailer or bike trailer, or carries a three bike carrier, and takes a roof box with no drama, or can waltz down the road at speeds which are permitted abroad but which are highly illegal in the UK, and puts a smile on my face on wet B roads (ie.spirited and "interesting"), and without costing me an arm and a leg in fuel, then it'll do for me. It's going to be 6 cylinder, X Drive, Auto, so it's just whether it'll be petrol or diesel, that's the question, and I'll live with the looks of the thing.
So it is what it is, again, IMHO, it looks a bit of a mess with all those side swages, and I'd always prefer less shiny bits than that, but as long as it continues to deliver for me as the driver what the F31 delivers in spades ie. tows a heavy Ifor Williams trailer or bike trailer, or carries a three bike carrier, and takes a roof box with no drama, or can waltz down the road at speeds which are permitted abroad but which are highly illegal in the UK, and puts a smile on my face on wet B roads (ie.spirited and "interesting"), and without costing me an arm and a leg in fuel, then it'll do for me. It's going to be 6 cylinder, X Drive, Auto, so it's just whether it'll be petrol or diesel, that's the question, and I'll live with the looks of the thing.
andrewparker said:
Can't help but feel disappointed in the execution of the Touring version as I've had it down as a potential purchase in the near future. From some angles it looks really dumpy.
I feel the same, but maybe it will look better in the flesh though the rear quarter looks very slab sided. I'm eyeing one up as the daily/family car, if it drives as reported I will probably overlook the ugly face.neverraced said:
I don't want to be swaying around in an SUV (or looking down by nose from one), and a saloon just doesn't contain all the mtb'ing gubbins that I carry around all the time.
Funny you mention mtb'ing, our Karoq is a far better tool to transport my mountain bike. It stands upright at the back with just the front wheel off and the dropper locks it in position against the roof at a press of the lever. We can even put two of them side by side. A4 estate is a non-starter for that.nickfrog said:
neverraced said:
I don't want to be swaying around in an SUV (or looking down by nose from one), and a saloon just doesn't contain all the mtb'ing gubbins that I carry around all the time.
Funny you mention mtb'ing, our Karoq is a far better tool to transport my mountain bike. It stands upright at the back with just the front wheel off and the dropper locks it in position against the roof at a press of the lever. We can even put two of them side by side. A4 estate is a non-starter for that.If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
There were also btw two kids bikes in the car.
Fastdruid said:
That's what carriers are for. The tow bar carrier is awesome, especially with a removable towbar. Takes about 10min to fit.
If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
There were also btw two kids bikes in the car.
I certainly don't want mtb's IN the car, at least not afterwards anyway! I have removable swan neck on all my cars, as I tow trailers too.If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
There were also btw two kids bikes in the car.
Fastdruid said:
That's what carriers are for. The tow bar carrier is awesome, especially with a removable towbar. Takes about 10min to fit.
If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
Carriers are a faff for me when I can just chuck it in the car, so much simpler although that limits it to 2 bikes. Mud is no issue as I have a portable (low pressure) washer. It needs doing anyway and it's easier to do it while the mud is still wet. My point is that the optimum / simpler solution wouldn't work with an estate. Not to mention places where the Karok has enough clearance to get to where the A4 would have been stuck (Southern Enduro Series, I am looking at you If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
)nickfrog said:
Not to mention places where the Karok has enough clearance to get to where the A4 would have been stuck (Southern Enduro Series, I am looking at you )
I've been amazed how capable the X drive is off road, clearance permitting; it was awesome in the "proper" snow that we had this winter.)nickfrog said:
Fastdruid said:
That's what carriers are for. The tow bar carrier is awesome, especially with a removable towbar. Takes about 10min to fit.
If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
Carriers are a faff for me when I can just chuck it in the car, so much simpler although that limits it to 2 bikes. Mud is no issue as I have a portable (low pressure) washer. It needs doing anyway and it's easier to do it while the mud is still wet. My point is that the optimum / simpler solution wouldn't work with an estate. Not to mention places where the Karok has enough clearance to get to where the A4 would have been stuck (Southern Enduro Series, I am looking at you If you're doing it properly (rather than toddling round with the kids like us) I'm not entirely sure I'd *want* a mucky MTB in the car either.
)Anyone saying they want one of these with a manual box clearly hasn’t driven the latest iteration of BMW’s. I’ve got an F31 320d as a company car with a manual box and it’s by far and away the worst gearbox I’ve ever used. In contrast, my 135i had the 8 speed auto which is mint. I’d even take the smg2 in my M6 over it. Bloody awful things, I’d go auto every time*
- unless on a track day but I doubt many would take a bog spec 3 series estate round Spa...
Fastdruid said:
Yes that works for you but for a family we need 4 people in there *and* 4 bikes. So the ability to sit 2 is utterly irrelevant. Plus I'd still rather an estate than a softroader/crossover/suv.
That's cool, I like estates too, I even have one. But saying that they're better for proper mountain biking than a crossover doesn't correspond to my experience of both in this context. donkis2032 said:
Anyone saying they want one of these with a manual box clearly hasn’t driven the latest iteration of BMW’s. I’ve got an F31 320d as a company car with a manual box and it’s by far and away the worst gearbox I’ve ever used. In contrast, my 135i had the 8 speed auto which is mint. I’d even take the smg2 in my M6 over it. Bloody awful things, I’d go auto every time*
I get that, but the 8 speed auto (and autoboxes in general) are not my cup of tea and quite frustrating at times. Objectively great in many ways, just don't float my boat. I use autos a lot by the way, always choose autos for rental cars.- unless on a track day but I doubt many would take a bog spec 3 series estate round Spa...
Craikeybaby said:
It’s a no from me. Which is a shame, as a 3 series estate is the obvious choice for me in that I need to replace my 1 series with something bigger.
On the looks do you mean? It's an estate car isn't it, we can't escape from that - my partner says that all estates look like pregnant locusts anyway!Fastdruid said:
nickfrog said:
Fastdruid said:
It's something I don't get from BMW, their USP is the whole "driving machine" thing...yet no manual.
Shame there isn't a choice although it's a family road car, not a track weapon or a fun sports car so not sure it matters that much. I would still prefer that to a Focus Estate... even in manual. 1) If you don't care about driving, why bother with a BMW in the first place?
2) If it's just going to be a family road car then why not an MPV? Far more practical *unless* you care about the dynamics of how it drives.
2) You're not always going to be "with the family" so if you enjoy driving then unless you have multiple cars your car has to be good to drive.
I just don't get it. The whole point of an Estate over the MPV or SUV is that it's 99% of a normal saloon but with a bigger boot. ie it handles like a normal car but if you don't *care* about the "driving experience" then why bother? Why *not* just go crossover/MPV/SUV?
I've recently driven the current 3 series saloon (and owned a previous gen phev). Would be my choice unless I can find a very attractively priced Giulia. 3 series IS the best in segment in terms of experience. Shame it looks so s
t. BMW need to get their design act together. Elegance and restrained sportiveness YOU CAN DO IT BMW.
No go and design it.
t. BMW need to get their design act together. Elegance and restrained sportiveness YOU CAN DO IT BMW.No go and design it.
Edited by Nerdherder on Friday 4th October 15:28
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