RE: Fourways Engineering | PH Meets
Discussion
PZR said:
You're talking about sales numbers as though they prove something about concept, design, styling and engineering. I'm saying they don't.
But that's inaccurate. Because those buyers have dominated the narrative from Day One, as well as the creation of experiences which have followed. Ex Japan.Even if 98.5 percent of US buyers were hairdressers with no motoring mien, the remaining 1.5 percent exceed all UK sales. And today there are almost no owner voices to represent your point of view.
You've got things back to front. Like these:
"Good thing the U-571 nicked that Enigma machine."
"Fancy a good Stilton? Ring up a cheese shop in Wisconsin."
"Unlike in Briton, the Americans are known for their skilful oratory."
unsprung said:
PZR said:
You're talking about sales numbers as though they prove something about concept, design, styling and engineering. I'm saying they don't.
But that's inaccurate. Because those buyers have dominated the narrative from Day One, as well as the creation of experiences which have followed. Ex Japan.Even if 98.5 percent of US buyers were hairdressers with no motoring mien, the remaining 1.5 percent exceed all UK sales. And today there are almost no owner voices to represent your point of view.
You've got things back to front.
USA voices have indeed "dominated the narrative" in the English ("Briton"?) language. You cited zhome.com as a reference source, when it offers a totally skewed narrative from a single author source with no peer group critique. And yet these are Japanese cars. The zhome.com quote of "An American Car, Made in Japan", says it all about that viewpoint really.
It's a Japanese car. The most accurate version of the story is the one written in Japan, in the Japanese language, by the Japanese people who made it.
PZR said:
Why are you talking about UK sales? What do they prove about the design, styling and engineering of these cars? This is not some kind of USA vs UK battle.
USA voices have indeed "dominated the narrative" in the English ("Briton"?) language. You cited zhome.com as a reference source, when it offers a totally skewed narrative from a single author source with no peer group critique. And yet these are Japanese cars. The zhome.com quote of "An American Car, Made in Japan", says it all about that viewpoint really.
It's a Japanese car. The most accurate version of the story is the one written in Japan, in the Japanese language, by the Japanese people who made it.
This vehicle is a first-rate example of globalisation in which its place of manufacture is, to some extent, and somewhat ironically, displaced by its place of consumption -- which is overwhelmingly, both at conception and today, the United States.USA voices have indeed "dominated the narrative" in the English ("Briton"?) language. You cited zhome.com as a reference source, when it offers a totally skewed narrative from a single author source with no peer group critique. And yet these are Japanese cars. The zhome.com quote of "An American Car, Made in Japan", says it all about that viewpoint really.
It's a Japanese car. The most accurate version of the story is the one written in Japan, in the Japanese language, by the Japanese people who made it.
I'm casting my lot with the lads at EVO:
"The Z was only ever a small player in the UK, but it virtually built the Datsun, and subsequently Nissan brands in the United States."
"The Datsun 240Z story starts with Yutaka Katayama, tasked with bringing the Datsun brand to the United States..."
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but your argument is looking reductive and somewhat elitist.
unsprung said:
This vehicle is a first-rate example of globalisation in which its place of manufacture is, to some extent, and somewhat ironically, displaced by its place of consumption -- which is overwhelmingly, both at conception and today, the United States.
I'm casting my lot with the lads at EVO:
"The Z was only ever a small player in the UK, but it virtually built the Datsun, and subsequently Nissan brands in the United States."
"The Datsun 240Z story starts with Yutaka Katayama, tasked with bringing the Datsun brand to the United States..."
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but your argument is looking reductive and somewhat elitist.
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but quoting Evo magazine as some kind of authority on the subject is an immediate fail. The lionisation of Yutaka Katayama - great man though he was - is also a mistake. Katayama was a relative latecomer to the gestation of Nissan's '270 Kaihatsu Kigou' project and attached himself to it. He was also a late arrival in the NMC USA story. Marubeni Corp and Soichi Kawazoe laid the groundwork for that before Katayama even arrived. I'm casting my lot with the lads at EVO:
"The Z was only ever a small player in the UK, but it virtually built the Datsun, and subsequently Nissan brands in the United States."
"The Datsun 240Z story starts with Yutaka Katayama, tasked with bringing the Datsun brand to the United States..."
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but your argument is looking reductive and somewhat elitist.
I feel sorry for the little pickup trucks which contributed such a lot to NMC USA's success, as well as all the Sunnies and (510) Bluebirds. Talk about '240Z' sales figures and the "virtual building of the Datsun brand in the USA" might be put into more appropriate context by pointing out that USA sales for the '240Z' in the middle of its '70 through '73 run in 1971 represented just 10.6% of NMC's total market share. The '240Z' was outsold by the B110 4-door sedan (15.1%) and also the 510 4-door (14.9%). It was even outsold by the 510 Wagon (17%). The little pickups accounted for 26.5% of NMC USA sales in 1971. So I'd give the title of brand builders to 'the others'...
Like 'Evo' and almost all the other English language sources, you continue to talk about '240Z' as though it was one thing. It wasn't. It is something akin to talking about the 1970 through '73 USA market Porsche 911T as though it was the whole story of the 911, and ignoring its siblings. Far from being 'elitist', I'm encouraging you to look at the whole contemporary range and embrace the bigger S30-series Z story. The nothing-matters-except-USA viewpoint is the one that is reductive and elitist.
unsprung said:
This vehicle is a first-rate example of globalisation in which its place of manufacture is, to some extent, and somewhat ironically, displaced by its place of consumption -- which is overwhelmingly, both at conception and today, the United States.
I'm casting my lot with the lads at EVO:
"The Z was only ever a small player in the UK, but it virtually built the Datsun, and subsequently Nissan brands in the United States."
"The Datsun 240Z story starts with Yutaka Katayama, tasked with bringing the Datsun brand to the United States..."
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but your argument is looking reductive and somewhat elitist.
Please don't forget the part the 510 played in making the Datsun brand such a success in the US, was at the ZCON in Atlanta with Mr. K and mentioned to him that I had a 510, his comment back to me was he remembered the day he went to the port in Long Beach to watch the first 510's coming in and knew this would be one of the cars that would put Datsun on the map in the US I'm casting my lot with the lads at EVO:
"The Z was only ever a small player in the UK, but it virtually built the Datsun, and subsequently Nissan brands in the United States."
"The Datsun 240Z story starts with Yutaka Katayama, tasked with bringing the Datsun brand to the United States..."
https://www.evo.co.uk/nissan/22630/datsun-240z-rev...
It might be a bit unfair of me to say so, but your argument is looking reductive and somewhat elitist.
PZR said:
Like 'Evo' and almost all the other English language sources,
I believe that I might understand the nuance that you're asking for. Although I do begin to have some doubts when reading that "EVO and almost all the other English language sources" have uniformly and for years on end got the story, or essential chunks of it, wrong.I'd love to order a pint and sit down, but regrettably cannot. First, because I'm very far away and, secondly, I must go. Thank you and good evening.
"crappy ancillaries that weren't really Datsun's fault". If you say that then you need to let off Jaguar, Land Rover, Italian cars...…
Also "MGC GT with its pig-iron 2.9 litre six from the 1961 Austin Westminster saloon" is incorrect. I know it is pseudo Clarkson / Boris journalism but the cast iron was just the same as most other cast iron engine blocks etc and not pig iron. Also it was a new engine for the C and Austin 3 litre and was indeed heavy. Also the previous C engine was used in the Austin Healey and it is an engine that dates back to the early 50s designed by Morris Motors. So why illustrate with an Austin Westminster apart from Clarksonesque nonsense.
If you are to derogatory try and be factual less selectively biased.
Also "MGC GT with its pig-iron 2.9 litre six from the 1961 Austin Westminster saloon" is incorrect. I know it is pseudo Clarkson / Boris journalism but the cast iron was just the same as most other cast iron engine blocks etc and not pig iron. Also it was a new engine for the C and Austin 3 litre and was indeed heavy. Also the previous C engine was used in the Austin Healey and it is an engine that dates back to the early 50s designed by Morris Motors. So why illustrate with an Austin Westminster apart from Clarksonesque nonsense.
If you are to derogatory try and be factual less selectively biased.
Absolutely love my 240z. I have a fair few toys and it’s the only one which I’ll always hold on to.
If it wasn’t so easy to steal and susceptible to rust, I’d use it every single day. It doesn’t do a lot of miles, but will happily drive across the country without a hiccup.
Pics here for anyone interested
www.instagram.com/madda_joe
If it wasn’t so easy to steal and susceptible to rust, I’d use it every single day. It doesn’t do a lot of miles, but will happily drive across the country without a hiccup.
Pics here for anyone interested
www.instagram.com/madda_joe
madda said:
Absolutely love my 240z. I have a fair few toys and it’s the only one which I’ll always hold on to.
If it wasn’t so easy to steal and susceptible to rust, I’d use it every single day. It doesn’t do a lot of miles, but will happily drive across the country without a hiccup.
Pics here for anyone interested
www.instagram.com/madda_joe
Looks like you've really f**ked up in life bud............ If it wasn’t so easy to steal and susceptible to rust, I’d use it every single day. It doesn’t do a lot of miles, but will happily drive across the country without a hiccup.
Pics here for anyone interested
www.instagram.com/madda_joe
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