RE: Electric Jaguar XJ confirmed for 2020
Discussion
The golden age of ICE powered cars has already passsed. Ever-tightening emissions legislation, drive-by-wire throttles, clutch delay valves and turbocharging have robbed cars of their driveability and character.
Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
I love a characterful, sonorous ICE as much as anyone, but I'll concede that for a daily driver for most people, technically the time is almost right to move away from them even if it doesn't quite work financially yet. After all, who is going to miss the average 4-cylinder white goods engine?
Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
I love a characterful, sonorous ICE as much as anyone, but I'll concede that for a daily driver for most people, technically the time is almost right to move away from them even if it doesn't quite work financially yet. After all, who is going to miss the average 4-cylinder white goods engine?
SOL111 said:
He drew that conclusion from one trip? Shame.
It's amazing how humans have conquered many great feats traveling round the world but are seemingly stumped by a relatively straightforward trip to Scotland
Yes he did and provided the reasons why. Not least among them were two recharging stations that were out of order and others with unreliable or excruciatingly slow chargers. If you can rely on home charging to get you to your destination and back again then you should be OK. If you depend on third party charging then you currently run the risk of delays and lost time in the UK.It's amazing how humans have conquered many great feats traveling round the world but are seemingly stumped by a relatively straightforward trip to Scotland
Chapelon/Porta level steam tech would be an improvement on the laughably fragile electrified infrastructure we have to put up with. Overhead lines falling in any level of wind/rain/snow/ice, third rails freezing over, and traction so marginal in winter that 99% of services get cancelled and preserved steam has to come to the rescue...
Chapelon's 242A1 was faster, more efficient, more reliable and cheaper to run than the electric trains SNCF had already committed to, so was scrapped with indecent haste as a political embarrassment...
It isn't just about sound. It's about fitness for purpose.
Chapelon's 242A1 was faster, more efficient, more reliable and cheaper to run than the electric trains SNCF had already committed to, so was scrapped with indecent haste as a political embarrassment...
It isn't just about sound. It's about fitness for purpose.
legless said:
The golden age of ICE powered cars has already passsed. Ever-tightening emissions legislation, drive-by-wire throttles, clutch delay valves and turbocharging have robbed cars of their driveability and character.
Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
perhaps time for a driving holiday the other side of the Atlantic? Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
PRND said:
Wacky Racer said:
Electric is the future, whether you like it or not.
No point hanging about, get on with it or other manufacturers will leave you behind.
Even Morgan were experimenting with EV's ten years ago.
Is it though? The future? It might be, but it might not be. Can't help this is a gamble that could make or break the company. Especially as what has recently happened with JLR.No point hanging about, get on with it or other manufacturers will leave you behind.
Even Morgan were experimenting with EV's ten years ago.
Ever since TatA bought them they’ve been supported by the LR side of the business and each attempt to get Jaguar to grow, expand and be its own stand alone enterprise has failed. The SUVs seem to have done better than the saloons but the business is simply stuck at a certain volume level, has high costs and still after all these years carries that old man alco image. Nowhere near what it had become but it’s still not shaken it off.
Going for EV does seem a very sensible last roll of the dice for the brand. They have the brand pricing point to be able to sell EVs at a profit and while the global demand for EVs remains very small, Jaguar’s low volume size isn’t too large for it.
The other interesting element is that regardless of what Jaguar says they are not a tech company. Their tech has and almost certainly will be old and slow. Their EVs won’t be any different. And that puts them on the other side of the EV market place to Tesla who are a techie’s w
k fest. The simple reality is that not every punter with £100k to throw at a car is a techhead. Plenty don’t give a damn about tech. For some tech should be elegant and unobtrusive, just working brilliantly in the background and never, ever be front and centre or trying to be the star of the show. However, while there is total logic in electrifying an SUV such as the ipace, there doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of logic in electrifying a massive saloon as the sales volumes aren’t going to ever be all that exciting. But, I believe that the real reason behind starting here is because it will also be the new all electric Land Rover estate car that JLR need to start selling in Asia.
I suspect that faced with the option of a Jaguar XJ EV or the Land Rover estate EV then modern history will repeat itself and the vast bulk of client demand will be for the Land Rover.
But it’s a new chapter for Jaguar and I do think that it is completely the way forward for them. The only way forward. They just can’t grow profit through expanding into the cheaper volume sectors. They can’t just sell SUVs while remaining part of JLR. And while the sports cars and big V8s are wonderois things they are being taxed out of existence very rapidly and have no future. For a premium, lower volume manufacturer with high costs the EV segment looks bright for them.
SOL111 said:
He drew that conclusion from one trip? Shame.
It's amazing how humans have conquered many great feats traveling round the world but are seemingly stumped by a relatively straightforward trip to Scotland
It’s not about being stumped though is it? That’s a very patronising and deliberately obtuse remark and you almost certainly fully understand the reasoning. It's amazing how humans have conquered many great feats traveling round the world but are seemingly stumped by a relatively straightforward trip to Scotland
The market simply isn’t there yet and most consumers aren’t going to be lobbing premium money at something that isn’t a lot more convenient than the EV segment currently is for those who regularly drive long distance or cannot charge domestically etc.
Making stupid remarks doesn’t change the landscapenit just makes some EV fans look like knobs.
Of course you can get an EV all round the UK but that isn’t the point. The point is that very few people can be arsed to fanny about with spreadsheets and route planners and the vague hope of finding a charger working. At that area of the market it makes much more sense to stick with a diesel or if you have to drive in London a hybrid.
The big market for EVs is the urban and suburban runabout and second car market. Why? Because selling to evangelists and techheads is a niche sector and the wider market is well, much wider but isn’t going to be getting a raging boner route planning or fannying about with plugs.
Cupramax said:
Pleased to hear Jag investing in the UK but can’t help but thinking they should be electrifying other models than the XJ. I mean does anyone even buy big exec barges anymore? The world and his grandmother is buying SUV derivatives and family hatchbacks they go and electrify the XJ. 
I could understand a bit more if they did the XF.
No, no! I could understand a bit more if they did the XF.This is clearly the best idea anyone ever had, ever.
DonkeyApple said:
It’s not about being stumped though is it? That’s a very patronising and deliberately obtuse remark and you almost certainly fully understand the reasoning.
The market simply isn’t there yet and most consumers aren’t going to be lobbing premium money at something that isn’t a lot more convenient than the EV segment currently is for those who regularly drive long distance or cannot charge domestically etc.
Making stupid remarks doesn’t change the landscapenit just makes some EV fans look like knobs.
Of course you can get an EV all round the UK but that isn’t the point. The point is that very few people can be arsed to fanny about with spreadsheets and route planners and the vague hope of finding a charger working. At that area of the market it makes much more sense to stick with a diesel or if you have to drive in London a hybrid.
The big market for EVs is the urban and suburban runabout and second car market. Why? Because selling to evangelists and techheads is a niche sector and the wider market is well, much wider but isn’t going to be getting a raging boner route planning or fannying about with plugs.
Calm down dear. I was taking the piss.The market simply isn’t there yet and most consumers aren’t going to be lobbing premium money at something that isn’t a lot more convenient than the EV segment currently is for those who regularly drive long distance or cannot charge domestically etc.
Making stupid remarks doesn’t change the landscapenit just makes some EV fans look like knobs.
Of course you can get an EV all round the UK but that isn’t the point. The point is that very few people can be arsed to fanny about with spreadsheets and route planners and the vague hope of finding a charger working. At that area of the market it makes much more sense to stick with a diesel or if you have to drive in London a hybrid.
The big market for EVs is the urban and suburban runabout and second car market. Why? Because selling to evangelists and techheads is a niche sector and the wider market is well, much wider but isn’t going to be getting a raging boner route planning or fannying about with plugs.
Ranting makes people look like knobs.
As an i3 owner for 2 years here's my thoughts
- more diversity in EV cars is a good thing.
- What you buy and when is still a choice not a demand?
- What puts me off an I-PACE is price. Most expensive car I've owned is the I3 (mid 30's) not in the bracket for a I-PACE or Audi Q8..... Yet.....
- I choose EV for my commute but put the internals into a sports car package then the ease of pace and delivery would be ideal for me. My 595 Comp sometimes is just too shouty.
- My cost to get to work has dropped by 75% . Considering I do at least 2000 miles a month that was adding up to alot of fuel. Why would I choose my old 1 Series and associated cost?
- I've only once driven more than 400 miles in one go (Portsmouth to Edinburgh) that was in a big van when it was snowing and I just needed to get home. Very few people do this or should do more than this without a break.
I want them to be bolder and move into the smaller car space. The 208e is really an exciting car and that will more than likely be on my list in a year's time.
- more diversity in EV cars is a good thing.
- What you buy and when is still a choice not a demand?
- What puts me off an I-PACE is price. Most expensive car I've owned is the I3 (mid 30's) not in the bracket for a I-PACE or Audi Q8..... Yet.....
- I choose EV for my commute but put the internals into a sports car package then the ease of pace and delivery would be ideal for me. My 595 Comp sometimes is just too shouty.
- My cost to get to work has dropped by 75% . Considering I do at least 2000 miles a month that was adding up to alot of fuel. Why would I choose my old 1 Series and associated cost?
- I've only once driven more than 400 miles in one go (Portsmouth to Edinburgh) that was in a big van when it was snowing and I just needed to get home. Very few people do this or should do more than this without a break.
I want them to be bolder and move into the smaller car space. The 208e is really an exciting car and that will more than likely be on my list in a year's time.
legless said:
The golden age of ICE powered cars has already passsed. Ever-tightening emissions legislation, drive-by-wire throttles, clutch delay valves and turbocharging have robbed cars of their driveability and character.
Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
I love a characterful, sonorous ICE as much as anyone, but I'll concede that for a daily driver for most people, technically the time is almost right to move away from them even if it doesn't quite work financially yet. After all, who is going to miss the average 4-cylinder white goods engine?
Buy the right car if this is what you want. Drive pretty much any EU6 homologated engine now and the throttle response is appalling compared to cars from the mid 90s. That's even before you start to consider irritations like rev hanging, not allowing throttle to be applied under braking and turbo lag, all of which frustrate the enthusiastic driver.
I love a characterful, sonorous ICE as much as anyone, but I'll concede that for a daily driver for most people, technically the time is almost right to move away from them even if it doesn't quite work financially yet. After all, who is going to miss the average 4-cylinder white goods engine?
Most cars are for most people and as a result are what most people want: Simple, quiet, easy transport.
If you want more from a vehicle, don't buy an A to B car expecting it to be anything else. Buy a car designed for enthusiasts.
One thing to be mindful of, if it’s not already been mentioned, is the change in taxation for EV company cars.
Currently a Jag XJ EV equivalent would be a few hundred pounds a month tax. In tax year 20/21 this changes to tens of pounds a month.
I think for this reason alone there will be a large uptake in EV ownership. It is, after all, a taxation change levied to create EV ownership.
Currently a Jag XJ EV equivalent would be a few hundred pounds a month tax. In tax year 20/21 this changes to tens of pounds a month.
I think for this reason alone there will be a large uptake in EV ownership. It is, after all, a taxation change levied to create EV ownership.
T-195 said:
Wacky Racer said:
This. Think how big a mobile phone was in 1980...like a brick.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Oh stop it.Necessity is the mother of invention.
What necessity?
People wanted/needed mobile phones in a way nobody wants or needs an EV.
We need lower particulate emissions in cities to help with air quality, was something on about the state of the air in Birmingham last night.
Plenty of people want an EV, I know a few folk considering one next.
I was woken this morning at 5am by a diesel taxi clattering it’s tits off, can’t come soon enough.
I don’t want one currently but wish everyone else would, nothing quite like a ropey old diesel taxi idling noisily for ten minutes in the road on a summers morning with the windows open whilst it stinks the place out.
I reckon it will end up with ICE being just enthusiasts and those on tighter budgets as the ICE stuff migrates down, eventually with EVs replacing them.
J4CKO said:
He was talking about the battery tech developing.
We need lower particulate emissions in cities to help with air quality, was something on about the state of the air in Birmingham last night.
Plenty of people want an EV, I know a few folk considering one next.
I was woken this morning at 5am by a diesel taxi clattering it’s tits off, can’t come soon enough.
I don’t want one currently but wish everyone else would, nothing quite like a ropey old diesel taxi idling noisily for ten minutes in the road on a summers morning with the windows open whilst it stinks the place out.
I reckon it will end up with ICE being just enthusiasts and those on tighter budgets as the ICE stuff migrates down, eventually with EVs replacing them.
I agree with your long term vision. But I’d disagree with the urban air quality argument. It’s become a bit of a mantra but the reality is that Western urban air pollution is mostly due to other factors than private cars and by believing that mantra we aren’t going to be taking a significant step forward. Ultimately the issue lies with commerce rather than private individuals’ car pollution. We need lower particulate emissions in cities to help with air quality, was something on about the state of the air in Birmingham last night.
Plenty of people want an EV, I know a few folk considering one next.
I was woken this morning at 5am by a diesel taxi clattering it’s tits off, can’t come soon enough.
I don’t want one currently but wish everyone else would, nothing quite like a ropey old diesel taxi idling noisily for ten minutes in the road on a summers morning with the windows open whilst it stinks the place out.
I reckon it will end up with ICE being just enthusiasts and those on tighter budgets as the ICE stuff migrates down, eventually with EVs replacing them.
I think that Jaguar’s move is the correct one given the global taxation situation and overall that it’s a good thing for as many of us as possible to migrate over the coming years to EVs over ICE but equally, I think it’s important to not believe that this solves any of the great problems that face us and there is even the risk that it takes pressure away from facing up to the real problems.
TG105 said:
One thing to be mindful of, if it’s not already been mentioned, is the change in taxation for EV company cars.
Currently a Jag XJ EV equivalent would be a few hundred pounds a month tax. In tax year 20/21 this changes to tens of pounds a month.
I think for this reason alone there will be a large uptake in EV ownership. It is, after all, a taxation change levied to create EV ownership.
Good point. The low BIK and claimed economy is what pushed diesel sales.Currently a Jag XJ EV equivalent would be a few hundred pounds a month tax. In tax year 20/21 this changes to tens of pounds a month.
I think for this reason alone there will be a large uptake in EV ownership. It is, after all, a taxation change levied to create EV ownership.
2% BIK and 3p/mile will push a lot of EV's . Perhaps not like the rush for diesel but will undoubtedly increase sales.
DonkeyApple said:
J4CKO said:
He was talking about the battery tech developing.
We need lower particulate emissions in cities to help with air quality, was something on about the state of the air in Birmingham last night.
Plenty of people want an EV, I know a few folk considering one next.
I was woken this morning at 5am by a diesel taxi clattering it’s tits off, can’t come soon enough.
I don’t want one currently but wish everyone else would, nothing quite like a ropey old diesel taxi idling noisily for ten minutes in the road on a summers morning with the windows open whilst it stinks the place out.
I reckon it will end up with ICE being just enthusiasts and those on tighter budgets as the ICE stuff migrates down, eventually with EVs replacing them.
I agree with your long term vision. But I’d disagree with the urban air quality argument. It’s become a bit of a mantra but the reality is that Western urban air pollution is mostly due to other factors than private cars and by believing that mantra we aren’t going to be taking a significant step forward. Ultimately the issue lies with commerce rather than private individuals’ car pollution. We need lower particulate emissions in cities to help with air quality, was something on about the state of the air in Birmingham last night.
Plenty of people want an EV, I know a few folk considering one next.
I was woken this morning at 5am by a diesel taxi clattering it’s tits off, can’t come soon enough.
I don’t want one currently but wish everyone else would, nothing quite like a ropey old diesel taxi idling noisily for ten minutes in the road on a summers morning with the windows open whilst it stinks the place out.
I reckon it will end up with ICE being just enthusiasts and those on tighter budgets as the ICE stuff migrates down, eventually with EVs replacing them.
I think that Jaguar’s move is the correct one given the global taxation situation and overall that it’s a good thing for as many of us as possible to migrate over the coming years to EVs over ICE but equally, I think it’s important to not believe that this solves any of the great problems that face us and there is even the risk that it takes pressure away from facing up to the real problems.
The thing on telly said that EVs are better but still produce particulates from the brakes and tyres, which is true but the lady seemed misinformed as brake dust is much reduced with an EV which does the bulk of its braking via regeneration and I can’t imagine tyre dust is anywhere near as dangerous or numerous as exhaust fumes.
But there is also a industrial use and planes flying over every minute or so, log burners, central heating etc etc.
I just think a city of EVs would be a lot more pleasant than the current situation, walk down Deansgate in Manchester on a sunny day, it’s pretty hazy.
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