RE: G-Power tunes new BMW Z4 to 500hp

[Prof Prolapse]

Baddie said:

Mackofthejungle said:

Baddie said:

BMW really did seem to build it with strength in mind, and apparently were receptive to feedback from Toyota about component durability. Toyota engineers were surprised how much BMW spent developing the engine, BMW engineers were surprised how exacting the Toyota guys were about the quality of every part.

Where do people find this drivel?!

Was on a You Tube video about the development of the Supra, including interviews with the Toyota engineers. It specifically addressed the suitability of the B58 for, what is intended to be, a tuner’s car. BMW sent parts to Japan and Toyota returned them after testing them in a mutually cooperative engineering exercise where both companies learnt something. So when Tada san describes the B58 as “legendary” he’s qualified to do so.

The ZF 8HP is supplied in different torque ratings, it would be interesting to know which one is bolted to the B58 here.

So the source for this claim is a video either created by, or ran past, both companies marketing departments. A message which combines and reinforces the more positive perceptions of both manufacturers?

I'm not saying it's not true, I hope it is and everyone who buys one is very happy with their choices, but I think it would be healthy to be skeptical of stories like that...

[j_s14a]

HM-2 said:

Baddie said:

Was the 2JZ so impressive just because of the TLC really high output projects get, or because the engine was actually bombproof?

The whole mythos around the 2JZ is just that, really. ~600hp (and 200bhp per litre) on stock internals is impressive, but like other equally capable engines of its era, it's a pretty heavy thing. Modern engines can and have done the same, both in tuned for and (in the case of the latter figure) from the factory. There are US BMW B58 engines making ~560whp with just a stage 3 turbo, JB4, exhaust and intake. More with water/meth.

I think the main reason for its continued allure is relative availability (tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of engines out there- circa 50k Mk4 Supras (split between turbo and non-turbo) plus the various other cars that the 2JZ-GTE went into) and the relative availability of well regarded upgrades for them. The RB26DETT is similar in that it found its way into at least 80k GT-Rs across three generations, plus other edge uses.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 8th July 16:21

600hp? try 1000hp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04UaLV6n5DI
And this isn't a one off, it has been done quite a few times.

There are only a few "equally capable engines of its era" that I can think of, the the Mercedes M119, the Mazda 20b, and the strongest variant of the Ford 4.6 modular engine, which found its way into the Ford GT and Mustang 'Terminator' Cobra. As good as they are, as far as tuning for power on a stock, unopened engine goes, the RB26, 'Barra', LS family etc just aren't as good.

[Addymk2]

HM-2 said:

The whole mythos around the 2JZ is just that, really. ~600hp (and 200bhp per litre) on stock internals is impressive, but like other equally capable engines of its era, it's a pretty heavy thing. Modern engines can and have done the same, both in tuned for and (in the case of the latter figure) from the factory. There are US BMW B58 engines making ~560whp with just a stage 3 turbo, JB4, exhaust and intake. More with water/meth.

I think the main reason for its continued allure is relative availability (tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of engines out there- circa 50k Mk4 Supras (split between turbo and non-turbo) plus the various other cars that the 2JZ-GTE went into) and the relative availability of well regarded upgrades for them. The RB26DETT is similar in that it found its way into at least 80k GT-Rs across three generations, plus other edge uses.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 8th July 16:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHSvVIkxPB4

Worth a watch, the engine was bomb proof. It's also a lighter block than an RB26.

[Fetchez la vache]

dibblecorse said:

It's hard to imagine many BMW buyers needing it; Supra drivers, however...

Why ??????

I read this more based on marketing of the 2 cars rather than a swipe at (presumably, from the responses) delicate BMW drivers.
From the off they seem to have been marketed at different people in order not to tread on each others toes, sales wise. The soft top for a cossetted schlep to the.. whatever, while the Supra.. isn't.

The following I have just lifted from each cars landing page. Guess which is which?

CarA said:

Sophisticated details, such as the wing-shaped side panels, the modern and customisable instrument cluster, and the individual climate controls, deliver a truly elevated driving experience.

CarB said:

...delivers our purest experience yet. With an exhilarating blend of power, balance and agility, it offers enthusiasts the ultimate expression of driving pleasure.

It's not bloomin' rocket science is it?
N.B. Not aimed at dibblecorse specifically but more the responses to the comment...

[gofasterrosssco]

j_s14a said:

HM-2 said:

Baddie said:

Was the 2JZ so impressive just because of the TLC really high output projects get, or because the engine was actually bombproof?

The whole mythos around the 2JZ is just that, really. ~600hp (and 200bhp per litre) on stock internals is impressive, but like other equally capable engines of its era, it's a pretty heavy thing. Modern engines can and have done the same, both in tuned for and (in the case of the latter figure) from the factory. There are US BMW B58 engines making ~560whp with just a stage 3 turbo, JB4, exhaust and intake. More with water/meth.

I think the main reason for its continued allure is relative availability (tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of engines out there- circa 50k Mk4 Supras (split between turbo and non-turbo) plus the various other cars that the 2JZ-GTE went into) and the relative availability of well regarded upgrades for them. The RB26DETT is similar in that it found its way into at least 80k GT-Rs across three generations, plus other edge uses.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 8th July 16:21

600hp? try 1000hp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04UaLV6n5DI
And this isn't a one off, it has been done quite a few times.

There are only a few "equally capable engines of its era" that I can think of, the the Mercedes M119, the Mazda 20b, and the strongest variant of the Ford 4.6 modular engine, which found its way into the Ford GT and Mustang 'Terminator' Cobra. As good as they are, as far as tuning for power on a stock, unopened engine goes, the RB26, 'Barra', LS family etc just aren't as good.

When people talk about a 'stock block and 1,000 bhp' are they referring to the capability of the engine 'stock' (i.e. standard) long / unopened engine (including all upper and lower rotating components such as crank / pods / pistons and head gasket etc.) as that would be impressive, or just the fact that the base cylinder block (accounting for upgraded rotating components) can withstand such power levels with the need for cylinder wall reinforcement / liners etc.?

Regardless, I'm sure most of you seen the Car Throttle video on the B58 / Supra where the engines tend to push out 10-15% more from factory then the official claim

[banny650]

The B58 is a single turbo so cant have "downpipes or sports cats" also it runs a chargcooler not an intercooler, which clown does the research for these articles?

[HM-2]

gofasterrosssco said:

When people talk about a 'stock block and 1,000 bhp' are they referring to the capability of the engine 'stock' (i.e. standard) long / unopened engine (including all upper and lower rotating components such as crank / pods / pistons and head gasket etc.) as that would be impressive, or just the fact that the base cylinder block (accounting for upgraded rotating components) can withstand such power levels with the need for cylinder wall reinforcement / liners etc.?

Depends who you ask. Some people literally mean "unopened", some will be using OEM rods/pistons/crank but with uprated bolts and gaskets. A lot seem to run aftermarket cams, which is kinda-sorta "opening up" IMHO (but obviously you don't have to). Still others point to the block alone, which as you say is much less impressive. Though most seem to be the former two- and as the posters before me have noted, output beyond 600bhp isn't unheard of...but nor are cars bending and breaking pistons/rods at less than that.

[dibblecorse]

Fetchez la vache said:

It's not bloomin' rocket science is it?
N.B. Not aimed at dibblecorse specifically but more the responses to the comment...

Thats cool, and no offence taken, its just that the presumption is that the Z4 is soft (in real terms compared to some it is) but it isn'y without its virtues and its enthusiasts who love a bit of tinkering, maybe not JDM levels of tinkering ... lol

[J4CKO]

banny650 said:

The B58 is a single turbo so cant have "downpipes or sports cats" also it runs a chargcooler not an intercooler, which clown does the research for these articles?

A Chargecooler is sometimes known as an air to liquid intercooler being fair.

[Baddie]

Addymk2 said:

HM-2 said:

The whole mythos around the 2JZ is just that, really. ~600hp (and 200bhp per litre) on stock internals is impressive, but like other equally capable engines of its era, it's a pretty heavy thing. Modern engines can and have done the same, both in tuned for and (in the case of the latter figure) from the factory. There are US BMW B58 engines making ~560whp with just a stage 3 turbo, JB4, exhaust and intake. More with water/meth.

I think the main reason for its continued allure is relative availability (tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of engines out there- circa 50k Mk4 Supras (split between turbo and non-turbo) plus the various other cars that the 2JZ-GTE went into) and the relative availability of well regarded upgrades for them. The RB26DETT is similar in that it found its way into at least 80k GT-Rs across three generations, plus other edge uses.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 8th July 16:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHSvVIkxPB4

Worth a watch, the engine was bomb proof. It's also a lighter block than an RB26.

Very interesting

[Baddie]

Prof Prolapse said:

Baddie said:

Mackofthejungle said:

Baddie said:

BMW really did seem to build it with strength in mind, and apparently were receptive to feedback from Toyota about component durability. Toyota engineers were surprised how much BMW spent developing the engine, BMW engineers were surprised how exacting the Toyota guys were about the quality of every part.

Where do people find this drivel?!

Was on a You Tube video about the development of the Supra, including interviews with the Toyota engineers. It specifically addressed the suitability of the B58 for, what is intended to be, a tuner’s car. BMW sent parts to Japan and Toyota returned them after testing them in a mutually cooperative engineering exercise where both companies learnt something. So when Tada san describes the B58 as “legendary” he’s qualified to do so.

The ZF 8HP is supplied in different torque ratings, it would be interesting to know which one is bolted to the B58 here.

So the source for this claim is a video either created by, or ran past, both companies marketing departments. A message which combines and reinforces the more positive perceptions of both manufacturers?

I'm not saying it's not true, I hope it is and everyone who buys one is very happy with their choices, but I think it would be healthy to be skeptical of stories like that...

I think that’s fair.

[Honeywell]

You’d still have more fun in an MX5 or a GT86.

A big heavy 500hp automatic penis extension is not really very cool.

[mat205125]

Honeywell said:

You’d still have more fun in an MX5 or a GT86.

A big heavy 500hp automatic penis extension is not really very cool.

:haha:

I get the point you're making, and for many given situations on the road (especially a wet and roundabout shaped one!) you're absolutely right.

There are many other situations, however, where larger power outputs and performance can be huge fun too. Arguably, these situations involve an elevated level of irresponsibility though ...... a handful of seconds of full throttle on anything with more than 400bhp is going to see you in front of a judge, after all.

[anonymous-user]

J4CKO said:

banny650 said:

The B58 is a single turbo so cant have "downpipes or sports cats" also it runs a chargcooler not an intercooler, which clown does the research for these articles?

A Chargecooler is sometimes known as an air to liquid intercooler being fair.

Charge cooler is essentially the same thing, just uses two heat exchangers connected via a circuit containing liquid instead of air.