RE: Mini Electric is here!
Discussion
janesmith1950 said:
Will range be one of the (or the) main KPIs in cars of the future?
The range I think is why most currently prefer ICE cars. I reckon when most of the manufacturers nail the range and cost though of the EV they will take off massively. I've never been a fan of the EV mainly because I love the noise that a nice ICE makes, but if I'm alive for long enough I'm sure I'll end up getting an EV one day.
jonnyfive said:
Until they put solar on the roof and bonnet...im not going for elec. It makes NO SENSE TO BUILD ELEC CARS without Solar Panels...
A bit of a google suggests a typical silicon photovoltaic panel is 39inches by 65 inches. I think you could probably fit two panels like that on a car. They produce about 320 watts (each) at 18.7% efficiency so ~640W in total. That however is under ideal conditions called “peak sun,” or 1000 watts of sunlight per square meter of surface. That’s approximately equal to the power of the sun at noon, on a sunny day, at the equator.
So the battery for the MINI is 32.6kWh or 32600Wh which means at "peak sun" it would take 51 hours of peak sun to recharge the battery from flat.
At best however you get a few hours of sun. In the UK that's 4-5 hours in summer reducing to 1h in winter. So in the middle of summer you're looking at ~two weeks to charge your car to do 130Mi and two months in winter!
So it makes absolutely no sense to have them as a default, the only time it would make sense is for a very lightly used car in a sunny climate. If you literally do 10-20Mi a week it might make sense but even then I wouldn't want to rely on it.
Daaaveee said:
So true, every thread to do with EVs and the same old crap is spouted.
The MINI Electric looks good, has a range perfectly fine for a lot of the target audience (second car with the other bigger car used for long journeys), has the right badge and appearance that won't scare people off, and is pretty well priced.
I think they'll sell plenty, but whether or not they can/want to produce enough for the demand remains to be seen.
Equally, EV fanboys always throw around the Luddite accusation and never answer the questions raised.The MINI Electric looks good, has a range perfectly fine for a lot of the target audience (second car with the other bigger car used for long journeys), has the right badge and appearance that won't scare people off, and is pretty well priced.
I think they'll sell plenty, but whether or not they can/want to produce enough for the demand remains to be seen.
I may consider an electric car next as it may suit as a second/white goods car, but would only lease one because of battery degradation.
ukaskew said:
My wife does 15 miles a day and never does journeys longer than about 30 miles (I do those), she's in the market for a new car next year and I'm sure this would tick all the boxes for her.
There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
Do people really spend £4k and then another £300 a month on a car they only drive for 15 miles a day?There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
Matt-il77s said:
ukaskew said:
My wife does 15 miles a day and never does journeys longer than about 30 miles (I do those), she's in the market for a new car next year and I'm sure this would tick all the boxes for her.
There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
Do people really spend £4k and then another £300 a month on a car they only drive for 15 miles a day?There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
Matt-il77s said:
Do people really spend £4k and then another £300 a month on a car they only drive for 15 miles a day?
Do people really spend £1miilion or more on a two seat hypercar that does more than 200 mph but they never drive it anywhere, ever? Horses for courses and personal choice. I'm here for the piston in Pistonheads and I don't mean brake caliper ones either.
Fastdruid said:
jonnyfive said:
Until they put solar on the roof and bonnet...im not going for elec. It makes NO SENSE TO BUILD ELEC CARS without Solar Panels...
A bit of a google suggests a typical silicon photovoltaic panel is 39inches by 65 inches. I think you could probably fit two panels like that on a car. They produce about 320 watts (each) at 18.7% efficiency so ~640W in total. That however is under ideal conditions called “peak sun,” or 1000 watts of sunlight per square meter of surface. That’s approximately equal to the power of the sun at noon, on a sunny day, at the equator.
So the battery for the MINI is 32.6kWh or 32600Wh which means at "peak sun" it would take 51 hours of peak sun to recharge the battery from flat.
At best however you get a few hours of sun. In the UK that's 4-5 hours in summer reducing to 1h in winter. So in the middle of summer you're looking at ~two weeks to charge your car to do 130Mi and two months in winter!
So it makes absolutely no sense to have them as a default, the only time it would make sense is for a very lightly used car in a sunny climate. If you literally do 10-20Mi a week it might make sense but even then I wouldn't want to rely on it.
Jon_S_Rally said:
Nigel_O said:
Exactly - £4k up front equates to another £83pm over four years, so the true cost is already £382pm
My rattly old Alfa GT diesel cost £4k to buy and I get a month's commuting out of a tank. Even if the electricity was free for the Mini, the cost of the Mini is almost two and a half times the cost of running the Alfa over four years (and at the end of the four years I would still own a rattly old Alfa GT, whereas with the Mini, you're back on Shank's Pony, having to fork out another initial PCH payment for the next car)
And before I get accused of polluting the planet, how much pollution have I saved by putting a quarter of a million miles on the Alfa, rather than on three brand new cars over the same period?
But your Alfa wasn't £4,000 when it was new, was it? In order for you to buy it for that price, someone had to buy it new at one point. As seems to be pointed out and time and time again on this website, comparing old and new is pointless.My rattly old Alfa GT diesel cost £4k to buy and I get a month's commuting out of a tank. Even if the electricity was free for the Mini, the cost of the Mini is almost two and a half times the cost of running the Alfa over four years (and at the end of the four years I would still own a rattly old Alfa GT, whereas with the Mini, you're back on Shank's Pony, having to fork out another initial PCH payment for the next car)
And before I get accused of polluting the planet, how much pollution have I saved by putting a quarter of a million miles on the Alfa, rather than on three brand new cars over the same period?
The Yorkshireman in me couldn't stomach spending more than £18,000 over four years and having no car to show for it at the end, when the alternative is to spend less (a LOT less) and actually still own the car.
TBH, I quite fancy the idea of an electric car - my commute is 20 miles round trip, so it makes a lot of sense. What I can't bring myself to do is spend more money having an electric car on the drive than I would with a ten year old Alfa. Add in the fact that if I want to drive to Wales, or London, or anywhere more than 50 mile away, I can do so without worry.
Electric cars will become mainstream, probably in my own lifetime (I'm 57) and definitely in my children's lifetime, but they aren't quite there yet. Perhaps "mainstream" for many people means when they can be picked up relatively cheaply on the secondhand market. Certainly, if I could find a semi-desirable electric car for roughly the same budget as an ICE car, I would seriously consider it. Vauxhall Ampera is probably getting the closest (I'm not interested in the smaller stuff like Leaf, Zoe etc)
Dr Interceptor said:
One serious question, which probably applies to all Ev's, what are they like on power leakage?
If for instance I left Farnborough and drove 45 miles to Gatwick, and parked it in long stay for two weeks, would there be enough juice in it after two weeks to get me home?
Most EVs are absolutely fine. If for instance I left Farnborough and drove 45 miles to Gatwick, and parked it in long stay for two weeks, would there be enough juice in it after two weeks to get me home?
The only ones I believe have severe "leakage" or "vampire drain" as EVers call it are Teslas. All Tesla models consume a remarkable amount of power when parked, some software revisions improve it some worsen it so its hard to say exactly you'd have to test it before your trip if you got a Tesla (or realistically look to park it plugged in!!)
Anyway, this and the i3 are probably OK. I had a LEAF for a while and left it for 2 weeks of holiday at 50% charge, when I got back it was 50% so... all good.
I find we have a hard time looking at things from perspectives other than our own here.
Cost is a big factor for most of us, and yes a 15 year old diesel has a much greater range and costs much less, but realistically buying an economical second had car is not what you do when you have the funds not to have to.
Yes, the range is pretty poor, but I could do what I need to do 99 percent of the time using it and if I get some insatiable urge to go to Alloa and back in a day, then I would probably use another method.
So, with sixty plus million folk in this country, rule out all those who cant drive, those who wouldnt be able to use this, those that cant afford it and all the other reasons, it still leaves a pool of quite a few who may have it on their radar, BMW only need to sell a certain number and its all part of the strategy.
There are plenty of uses for it, I suspect for getting round congestion charges and a bit of that virtue signalling that gets mentioned, companies in London will buy them in droves to strut their eco credentials, stuff like West End estate agents, ad agencies and anything with artisan in the name.
And they arent wrong, it works for them as they arent on so much of a budget like most of us, they dont do huge journeys and perhaps they just fancy one.
it probably drives pretty well, sixty in 7.3 is fairly brisk, it has all the virtues of the normal IC Mini's intact.
When you look at what people spend their money on, I can see how it isnt perhaps as strange as so many seem to think. You can spend a million quid on a watch when a Casio does the same thing for a tenner, you can fly economy for £500 to the US but Business is perhaps ten times that. If I could afford it I would fly business but four and a half grand is a lot of money to me, I know people who think nothing of it.
Surprised we haven't had the "More money than sense" line, that should just be altered to "More money than me" and if you have loads of money, you dont need as much sense.
Even if you can afford one, its not for everybody, its a fairly niche purchase compared to a regular Mini, but in a few years I reckon most Minis will be electric, this is the start, version 1.0.
Cost is a big factor for most of us, and yes a 15 year old diesel has a much greater range and costs much less, but realistically buying an economical second had car is not what you do when you have the funds not to have to.
Yes, the range is pretty poor, but I could do what I need to do 99 percent of the time using it and if I get some insatiable urge to go to Alloa and back in a day, then I would probably use another method.
So, with sixty plus million folk in this country, rule out all those who cant drive, those who wouldnt be able to use this, those that cant afford it and all the other reasons, it still leaves a pool of quite a few who may have it on their radar, BMW only need to sell a certain number and its all part of the strategy.
There are plenty of uses for it, I suspect for getting round congestion charges and a bit of that virtue signalling that gets mentioned, companies in London will buy them in droves to strut their eco credentials, stuff like West End estate agents, ad agencies and anything with artisan in the name.
And they arent wrong, it works for them as they arent on so much of a budget like most of us, they dont do huge journeys and perhaps they just fancy one.
it probably drives pretty well, sixty in 7.3 is fairly brisk, it has all the virtues of the normal IC Mini's intact.
When you look at what people spend their money on, I can see how it isnt perhaps as strange as so many seem to think. You can spend a million quid on a watch when a Casio does the same thing for a tenner, you can fly economy for £500 to the US but Business is perhaps ten times that. If I could afford it I would fly business but four and a half grand is a lot of money to me, I know people who think nothing of it.
Surprised we haven't had the "More money than sense" line, that should just be altered to "More money than me" and if you have loads of money, you dont need as much sense.
Even if you can afford one, its not for everybody, its a fairly niche purchase compared to a regular Mini, but in a few years I reckon most Minis will be electric, this is the start, version 1.0.
Darinz said:
Dr Interceptor said:
One serious question, which probably applies to all Ev's, what are they like on power leakage?
If for instance I left Farnborough and drove 45 miles to Gatwick, and parked it in long stay for two weeks, would there be enough juice in it after two weeks to get me home?
Most EVs are absolutely fine. If for instance I left Farnborough and drove 45 miles to Gatwick, and parked it in long stay for two weeks, would there be enough juice in it after two weeks to get me home?
The only ones I believe have severe "leakage" or "vampire drain" as EVers call it are Teslas. All Tesla models consume a remarkable amount of power when parked, some software revisions improve it some worsen it so its hard to say exactly you'd have to test it before your trip if you got a Tesla (or realistically look to park it plugged in!!)
Anyway, this and the i3 are probably OK. I had a LEAF for a while and left it for 2 weeks of holiday at 50% charge, when I got back it was 50% so... all good.
Something like this would be ideal for me as a commuter car...(I do 20 miles each way and there are charging points at work).
However, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
My 18+ year old E46 330i touring has done 260K miles on it's original engine, gearbox, diff, etc...In fact, other than a few ancillary components or consumables, it is largely as it left Munich in 2001 and is still a reliable daily AND can easily tow either of my trailer vehicles.
Scrapping this (or selling it on for peanuts) is probably the least green option available! The longer I use it, the less valuable energy and materials are needed to create its' replacement.
The bonus is that, despite being built at the dawn of the 21st century, it conforms to current ULEZ requirements, so can be used (relatively) cheaply in London and in Europe.
Perhaps I could replace my E30 M3...it only gets used occasionally for commuting, but also occasionally on trackdays...no BEV is going to be able to replace that, really...Not to mention it is appreciating in value which any new (or new-ish) BEV, or indeed hybrid, is unlikely to ever accomplish!
However, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
My 18+ year old E46 330i touring has done 260K miles on it's original engine, gearbox, diff, etc...In fact, other than a few ancillary components or consumables, it is largely as it left Munich in 2001 and is still a reliable daily AND can easily tow either of my trailer vehicles.
Scrapping this (or selling it on for peanuts) is probably the least green option available! The longer I use it, the less valuable energy and materials are needed to create its' replacement.
The bonus is that, despite being built at the dawn of the 21st century, it conforms to current ULEZ requirements, so can be used (relatively) cheaply in London and in Europe.
Perhaps I could replace my E30 M3...it only gets used occasionally for commuting, but also occasionally on trackdays...no BEV is going to be able to replace that, really...Not to mention it is appreciating in value which any new (or new-ish) BEV, or indeed hybrid, is unlikely to ever accomplish!
T-195 said:
OK, so why do you think loads of people will spend 7 Grand more than a normal Cooper. With better residuals and none of the inconveniences of BEV ownership.
Better residuals? Great! Out of interest, what does a one year old Mini Electric go for at the moment? And a 3yr old one?And for plenty of people there are less inconveniences to a BEV.
But those blinkers probably stop you seeing that, and the chip on your shoulder makes the world seem lopsided?
Ryvita said:
But to me the unresolved question about electric cars is how they will perform once shagged and cheap. Will the batteries be OK? Will it be a case of them being written off because of the battery replacement costs? Or will they just be still running around but with a reduced range capacity...?
I think that’s been addressed with the Prius and the like - companies are out there that recondition battery packs for not huge sums of money.fushion julz said:
Something like this would be ideal for me as a commuter car...(I do 20 miles each way and there are charging points at work).
However, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
My 18+ year old E46 330i touring has done 260K miles on it's original engine, gearbox, diff, etc...In fact, other than a few ancillary components or consumables, it is largely as it left Munich in 2001 and is still a reliable daily AND can easily tow either of my trailer vehicles.
Scrapping this (or selling it on for peanuts) is probably the least green option available! The longer I use it, the less valuable energy and materials are needed to create its' replacement.
The bonus is that, despite being built at the dawn of the 21st century, it conforms to current ULEZ requirements, so can be used (relatively) cheaply in London and in Europe.
Perhaps I could replace my E30 M3...it only gets used occasionally for commuting, but also occasionally on trackdays...no BEV is going to be able to replace that, really...Not to mention it is appreciating in value which any new (or new-ish) BEV, or indeed hybrid, is unlikely to ever accomplish!
The earliest Teslas are 7 years old and the batteries seem to be holding up better than anticpated, generally 90 percent or better of capacity retained. Liek everything new its main dealer only but there are plenty of Youtube videos with people taking Teslas apart and rebuilding, for any tech an aftermarket will spring up. As it is now EV's dont generally need new packs and if they do the manufacturer deals with it under warranty. As the cars get older and drop out of the dealer network there will be busnesses spring up that replace and upgrade battery packs, i very much doubt otherwise serviceable cars will just be scrappedHowever, every time I look at any BEV I find a) it is way too expensive when b) it could only ever be a second/third car. I have a caravan and a boat, so require a vehicle able to tow those.
I also doubt that they are as "green" as advertised...The battery packs are consumables and will likely only last 6-8 years. Unlike a 6 year old carbon consuming vehicle, it would be nigh on impossible to salvage a propulsion device from crashed/time-expired car....
My 18+ year old E46 330i touring has done 260K miles on it's original engine, gearbox, diff, etc...In fact, other than a few ancillary components or consumables, it is largely as it left Munich in 2001 and is still a reliable daily AND can easily tow either of my trailer vehicles.
Scrapping this (or selling it on for peanuts) is probably the least green option available! The longer I use it, the less valuable energy and materials are needed to create its' replacement.
The bonus is that, despite being built at the dawn of the 21st century, it conforms to current ULEZ requirements, so can be used (relatively) cheaply in London and in Europe.
Perhaps I could replace my E30 M3...it only gets used occasionally for commuting, but also occasionally on trackdays...no BEV is going to be able to replace that, really...Not to mention it is appreciating in value which any new (or new-ish) BEV, or indeed hybrid, is unlikely to ever accomplish!
Rivian is producing BEV Pickups and SUVs that are due, a BEV, in terms of ability to tow is a good choice due to torque and they are generally fairly heavy, but towing will knock the already not that high range.
I am sure people will track Electric cars and there is Forumla E but its generally seen as a bit tedious, I think motorsport will continue to be dominated by petrol cars indefinitely as the noise is a big part of it.
ukaskew said:
My wife does 15 miles a day and never does journeys longer than about 30 miles (I do those), she's in the market for a new car next year and I'm sure this would tick all the boxes for her.
There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
I think you’re very much mistaken. Take another look. Your wife drives to John O’Groats three times a day and no journey is less than 700 miles. You don’t own a driveway because you live on benefits in a tower block in Croydon. Exactly the same as everyone else on the planet. There are plenty of us outside of cities that have driveways and relatively short commutes, this is ideal.
There is no one alive who fits your insane and wholly fabricated, fantasy world and EVs are being forced upon us by Dianne Abbot in a dangerous plan to gridlock all roads in the UK with uncharged, immovable cars this bringing about the Moaist Cycling Revolution and death camps.
But all is not yet lost. An army of specialist freedom fighters, bionically engineered with metal hip joints and super hearing devices are gathering at garden centres across the UK where they are discussing in a code language based around how disgraceful the price of Begonias are this year, their plan to fight back just as soon as Countdown is finished.
All hail the National Grid!
Turbobanana said:
Surely nobody in their right mind would expect to charge a car fully using solar alone (at least, not that could be fitted to a car). I believe the original point was that solar could be a useful top-up for a car left parked outside. That said, where I work, all the EV spaces are in a covered car park...
Still not worth it for the cost. You have to haul round the panels, the inverters and other gubbens that would mean that you would see a range hit but lets assume we don't.
Doing some more maths assuming that the charge is linear, so 250Wh per mile, which means in the middle of summer you'd get ~15Mi extra range per day down to ~4Mi in winter (probably less due to wanting the heater on).
So, 3808Wh per day maximum at the height of summer, if you keep the car for 4 years that is ~5559kWh (and you wouldn't get anywhere near that).
If you charge it from the mains however the average cost per kWh is 14.37p, so to get the same amount of energy from the panels it would cost you ~£800 (over 4 years) and lets not forget you would have to pay the extra for the panels. Lets assume they're roughly similar to household panels and call it 2k extra cost. So 10 years to break even.
You can't rely on it at any point (it may rain all day) so you couldn't use it to extend range on any kind of regular use (unless again doing very short trips).
So it just doesn't make any kind of sense, not financially, not in range and it would be ~6 times slower than charging by the slowest mains cable. You would be far better off spending the same amount on Solar Panels for your house and charging from the mains.
Unless you did do ~4Mi/day at which point it would probably never need charging!
budgie smuggler said:
joshleb said:
Does this not have a lower range than other electrics on the market?
Most of the bigger cars have a range of between 200 and 300 miles. However I think this is more like a competitor to city cars like the Honda e which has a range of around 125 miles. I guess in reality it will be enough for a lot of people to commute into town and back and charge up each night.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff