RE: Toyota GR Supra vs. BMW M2 Competition

[Blayney]

E65Ross said:

This sentence literally makes no sense. There ARE (not there is) more Bosch sensors in the [Toyota] than Toyota.....what?

I think they mean this

"There are more parts built by Bosch than parts built by Toyota in the new Supra"

[Ho Lee Kau]

Forced to choose between M2 and Supra I would chose the 1M, but the dream would be GT4 Gen1.

[9k rpm]

The M2 could never be considered a looker but it makes the Supra look so fussy.

I’m sure you will get the “you can tune the supra to make it better” comments but a simple remap on the S55 in the M2 comp will easily take it north of 500bhp. The B58 in the Supra needs serious hardware to get anywhere near those figures but I’m sure it would benefit from more horsepower which again a simple map will move to over 400bhp.

I wonder if bmw will at some point produce a Z4M coupe with the new S58 (think that’s what it’s called) from the forthcoming X3M/M3/M4. Or have they signed an agreement with Toyota not to fish in that pond?

[Tim bo]

The Supra is a little ... challenging on the eyes isn't it.

Will reserve judgement until I see one in the flesh. Pics often fail to convey an overall look and proportion of a car.

[T1berious]

Gameface said:

macky17 said:

Gameface said:

macky17 said:

I'll take the c8 vette please...

At between approximately £80k - £100k?

No but from about £65k I would. Where you getting those figures? Thin air?

Go to the Corvette thread and do some reading.

It's all there for your perusal.

As someone who's hoping to pull the trigger on an M2 Comp (less than 200 miles and HS, DCT heated seats please! <48K would be nice!) I have looked at the launch of the Corvette C8 with real interest!

Unfortunately the base version at <$60k ain't coming to the UK it will be the bells and whistles Z51 package that hit's the UK so it will be beyond Cayman money and knocking on the door of 911 money

Back on topic:

M2 Comp v Supra..... M2 all day long and I currently have a 2 seat toy!

[loveice]

Arsecati said:

loveice said:

The title of this article isn’t valid. It’s a bit like asking who makes the better camera sensor Sony or Nikon (or Fuji). Sony makes most Nikon’s sensors and all Fuji’s sensors. Yes, both Nikon and Fuji modify the sensors from Sony to suit their own cameras. But, only Sony makes the sensors. Nikon and Fuji simply don’t. So who makes better camera sensors between Sony and Nikon/Fuji? There isn’t an answer as the question isn’t valid.

BMW “makes” the new Supra, while Toyota tunes it to their targeted market which can be ever so different from BMW’s target. So, in order to make the comparison valid, then question needs to be “If both BMW and Toyota are targeting the exact same market, who tunes their BMW built straight six coupes better?”

There's more to a camera than just its sensor.
There's more to a car than just how its engine is tuned.

I agree. That wasn’t my argument, was it? The example I gave didn’t ask “who makes the better camera”, I simply asked “who makes the better sensor”...

As in this case, BMW makes both cars (Sony makes both Nikon and Fuji’s sensors). So you cannot ask who makes better of the two as both are made by BMW. The difference between the two cars (or from my example the difference between Sony’s sensors used in Sony cameras and Sony’s sensors used in Nikon/Fuji cameras) are not to do with who made better products. It’s about if Toyota’s tuning (when I say “tuning”, I don’t just mean the engine, it’s actually the whole setup I’m referring to) of their BMW made Supra are better suited for British petrolheads’ way of thinking than BMW’s own tuning to their Z4 or M2.

Since all products are made by the same manufacturer and somehow there’re differences between the two products, then we shouldn’t ask who made better... we can only ask whose tuning are better suited for whatever the condition.

[Grrbang]

Blayney said:

"There are more parts built by Bosch than parts built by Toyota in the new Supra"

Most car companies are integrators. Not many parts from the overall bill of materials of any car are designed or fabricated in house.

I think the criticism about originality mostly comes from who built one specific part - the engine. I think we are all right to be sceptical that this is no successor to the 2JZ which Toyota designed and manufactured.

[Grrbang]

In comparison, the supra looks low, planted and fast. In some of the photos, it looks like it's about to nip out and overtake the BMW then zoom off into the distance.

Cosmetically, these two cars are for two very different types of petrolhead.

[Gandahar]

Looks like tuning should make it a lot more fun, which is what Supras are all about.

However it is tuning a BMW, not tuning a Supra. Imagine Nissan putting a BMW engine in the next GT-R ...

Toyota screwed up calling this the Supra, with all its connotations a should have called it the Celica or something new.

[craigjm]

kambites said:

In that regard it's really not. The Supra is set up very differently than the Z4.

It's also worth pointing out that Toyota had a significant hand in developing the engine. The BMW unit as originally designed couldn't pass Toyota's quality control and reliability tests. Which of course should bode well for the reliability of the Z4 as well as the Supra.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 12:38

Where did you read that? Please quote your source

[cib24]

macky17 said:

No but from about £65k I would. Where you getting those figures? Thin air?

I was thinking the same thing. Assume it's priced between £60-70k, I would find a way to stretch to the C8. That thing has made everything pretty much irrelevant in the £50k to £300k price spectrum if you are looking at it from a performance per £ standpoint.

[vz-r_dave]

Tim bo said:

The Supra is a little ... challenging on the eyes isn't it.

Will reserve judgement until I see one in the flesh. Pics often fail to convey an overall look and proportion of a car.

Dude far to mature for this forum, reserving judgment until you actually see the car?? are you joking?

[vz-r_dave]

Gandahar said:

Looks like tuning should make it a lot more fun, which is what Supras are all about.

However it is tuning a BMW, not tuning a Supra. Imagine Nissan putting a BMW engine in the next GT-R ...

Toyota screwed up calling this the Supra, with all its connotations a should have called it the Celica or something new.

In what way have they screwed up exactly?

[Olivera]

kambites said:

It's also worth pointing out that Toyota had a significant hand in developing the engine. The BMW unit as originally designed couldn't pass Toyota's quality control and reliability tests. Which of course should bode well for the reliability of the Z4 as well as the Supra.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 12:38

Significant? It's a BMW parts bin special, with commonality with 3 series and Z4 6 cylinder units. If Toyota designed a single part I would be astonished.

[je777]

Harry_523 said:

The m2 has an extra turbo, a manual gearbox option, and back seats, how was it ever going to loose this?

Yup, and 70 more bhp and comes without the knowledge that the company deliberately made the car mediocre (as Toyota seemed to), 'because tuners can do it'.
Plus, subjectively, I think the Supra is one of the ugliest cars made since the Nissan Juke.

[MX6]

Based purely on the review of the dynamics and the spec (namely a manual 'box) I'd have to go for the M2 as the more exciting driving machine.

I find Supra more novel and visually interesting though, it at least looks more sporty and aggressive than the 2 door saloon body of the Beemer.

Historically the BMW badge has more apparent prestige, but as the article mentions, the Supra sub-brand has a strong image that Toyota obviously want to cash-in on. BMW's are so ubiquitous these days that I find them visually some of the least interesting cars on the road today.

Edited by MX6 on Wednesday 24th July 11:56

[nuttywobbler]

Olivera said:

kambites said:

It's also worth pointing out that Toyota had a significant hand in developing the engine. The BMW unit as originally designed couldn't pass Toyota's quality control and reliability tests. Which of course should bode well for the reliability of the Z4 as well as the Supra.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 12:38

Significant? It's a BMW parts bin special, with commonality with 3 series and Z4 6 cylinder units. If Toyota designed a single part I would be astonished.

Agreed. It's just a B58, as fitted to all manner of BMW's for years. I would image Toyota had no input whatsoever in the engine.

[kambites]

craigjm said:

Where did you read that? Please quote your source

Can't remember exactly where; it was a TV (YouTube maybe?) documentary which included interviews with some of the key people from both companies. One part which stuck with me was that BMW apparently shipped Toyota an engine which Toyota stripped down and destructively tested, which ended up with Toyota going back to BMW with a whole load of parts (I think it mostly simple things like bolts and bearings, rather than major components) which they demanded be upgraded to meet their engineering requirements.

Obviously it's thoroughly a BMW design, but it's not quite just a question of Toyota accepting an off-the-shelf BMW engine. I can't remember the exact details, it must be the best part of six months ago that I happened upon it, but Toyota were very clear that they didn't consider the existing B58 to be good enough.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 14:32

[Oily76]

kambites said:

In that regard it's really not. The Supra is set up very differently than the Z4.

It's also worth pointing out that Toyota had a significant hand in developing the engine. The BMW unit as originally designed couldn't pass Toyota's quality control and reliability tests. Which of course should bode well for the reliability of the Z4 as well as the Supra.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 23 July 12:38

The B58 has been in BMW's for the last 4 years and I don't believe they changed it for the Supra/Z4 installation.

I read that Toyota asked for a load of info on the engine, and were satisfied it met their requirements.

[kambites]

nuttywobbler said:

Agreed. It's just a B58, as fitted to all manner of BMW's for years. I would image Toyota had no input whatsoever in the engine.

"Just a B58" is rather an over-simplification. There's loads of versions of that basic engine; the B58B30M1 as used in the Supra apparently went on sale in mid 2018.