RE: Ford details new 7.3-litre (!) V8 truck engine

[loveice]

unsprung said:

dvs_dave said:

Here’s an interesting interview with Ford engineers about how and why this engine came about.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technolo...

It’s a clean sheet design, and for the intended usage profile, heavy duty trucks in a commercial environment, it offers superior fuel economy, lower purchase and operating costs, and significantly greater durability over higher stressed downsized boosted units.

It’s important to note that this engine isn’t going to be offered in the F-150 range, only the F-250 Heavy Duty range and up which are the equivalent of a small lorry/large van in the Euro market.

The more popular and consequently familiar F-150 range is the smaller “civilian” light duty offering which spends the majority of its time bimbling around town empty, which is where a downsized boosted engine yields better economy. But as soon as you start to work them hard for extended periods, fuel economy plummets, and durability takes a big hit too.

A very useful link indeed. Thanks for that.

The article reads a bit like a technical workshop. All very interesting: the "hunt" for the most appropriate spec's for commercial vehicles with constant heavy loads and low speeds (at least, initially, when overcoming inertia). Also need to keep the fleet manager happy vis a vis costs.

I reckon that's one of the most fun parts of engineering, at least for my own maths-challenged mind: Defining the use case and eliminating and combining attributes, almost in a Darwinian way, to arrive at just the right machine.

Sadly most so called petrolheads nowadays only care and to certain degree understand figures like 0-60, hp per liter, top speed, latest tech...

People need to realise anything comes out of OEM needs to make business sense for both the manufacturer and consumer, not everything is weekend toy.

What’s more, these F-250 and above are true heavy duties which we don’t see at all in this country. Some of the duallies can tow (manufacture recommend, not record setting special occasions) more than 16 tons with a goose neck. We should really compare this engine to the ones in medium size lorries instead of the latest high performance cars/SUVs.

[Swalsey]

tr7v8 said:

I work for a major US company based in Texas. There will be very few trucks in the car park, mostly it is Kia's, Hyundai etc. They have also just found the Germans in a big way so the younger guys are driving M3, and the equivalent Audi. The older family guys are driving 5 & 7 series, a lot desesals also Audi. They pickups are for the weekend, towing the RV or boat. None of these could you tow with any form of car. Bigger than the F250 it is contractors & builders. Again frequently towing monster plant trailers

Thats actually a bit reassuring! Thanks!

[unsprung]

loveice said:

What’s more, these F-250 and above are true heavy duties which we don’t see at all in this country. Some of the duallies can tow (manufacture recommend, not record setting special occasions) more than 16 tons with a goose neck.

I once enjoyed a chat with a guy who owns a company that builds bespoke versions of those goose neck trailers, as well as "regular" trailers, for contractors and engineers that work in or around infrastructure, energy, and commercial construction.

In many US states, you can drive these trailers without a commercial driving license -- so long as your trailer and your truck + trailer combination adhere to particular weight restrictions. So, one of the objectives of this guy's company is to maximise the strength and utility of the trailer whilst minimising weight. Very interesting.

I also appreciated the video segment that you posted earlier in this thread (I republish it, here). Again, in that video, we are able to see how the lead engineer is thinking in terms of outcomes for the commercial user. The words "heavy duty" are no mere label.

[dvs_dave]

loveice said:

What’s more, these F-250 and above are true heavy duties which we don’t see at all in this country. Some of the duallies can tow (manufacture recommend, not record setting special occasions) more than 16 tons with a goose neck. We should really compare this engine to the ones in medium size lorries instead of the latest high performance cars/SUVs.

Yes, it seems lost on the vast majority that this is a commercial heavy duty rated truck (aka lorry) power plant. It’s not designed for a high speed, fast accelerating performance vehicle where specific power/torque output, high RPM and responsiveness matters.

To help the hard of thinking, here’s some pretty pics to show the vehicles it’ll be used in, the F-250 being the smallest of them.

This style of vehicle simply does not feature in the Euro market, instead this sort of duty is fulfilled by vans and small lorries instead.

Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 2nd August 23:28

[Veeayt]

GM Vortec 8100 laughs at the Ford's pitiful capacity. Or would, if it was still alive.

[Caviar]

so long as tesla keeps selling like hot cakes there

[JimbobVFR]

seefarr said:

I guess this is going to replace the Triton V10:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine#...

I was just about to post the same. My dad has a Winnebago with the Triton V10 petrol. I wonder how this new V8 will do in the same application.

[JimbobVFR]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Rest of the world - human action is destroying the planet, what can we do
Merica - bigger engines !

Based on the vehicles it's going in I think this is actually another victim of the downsizing trend. Looks to be replacing the previous Triton V10 like my dad has in his Winnebago.

[Big Robbo]

Swalsey said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

Rest of the world - human action is destroying the planet, what can we do
Merica - bigger engines !

Exactly. Gotta love Americans? No. Any person anywhere daily driving massive trucks or any thirsty motor when a decent car would do needs to have a word with themselves IMO.

Sent you missing the point? In America that engine makes sense. American people are notoriously short sighted self interested Muppetry but they go about cars the right way

[unsprung]

Veeayt said:

GM Vortec 8100 laughs at the Ford's pitiful capacity. Or would, if it was still alive.

welp, apparently GM has formed a partnership with Navistar, the heavy-duty truck people, to co-develop commercial vehicles that use a petrol V8 circa 8.0 litres

article here
https://www.motor1.com/news/306009/gm-eight-liter-...

[foxbody-87]

It’s a truck engine, for trucks. I don’t see why it being 7.3 litres is so shocking. Don’t forget that the maximum load for towing is much higher in the USA so the F series trucks get much more commercial use than say the Hilux would over here.

One point regarding emissions - European trucks have stagnated in terms of efficiency to the point where US manufacturers are set to overtake them in fuel efficiency and emissions.

[Immortalisation]

I understand why they’re putting them out in a lazy state of tune but how much BHP could these theoretically make without going crazy? Roughly 800 if left naturally aspirated and something like 1200 with forced induction?

[Mr Tidy]

I don't know how relevant it is these days, but back in 1977 I spent a month in Canada with some relatives who had a farm.

They had a Ford F100 pick-up with a 5.7 litre V8 and a manual box, which was a real treat to drive when I was 18!

But as farmers they could use dyed fuel in the pick-up the same as in their tractors, which was taxed much lower.

So their 6.6 litre Chrysler Newport was just for special occasions, or when they needed more than 3 seats!

If that sort of tax regime still exists then maybe a 7.3 litre petrol V8 pick-up might make sense.

[alabbasi]

This 7.3 liter engine is designed to replace the 6.2 V8 and the 6.8 v10 that go into their heavy duty pickup truck line. Being an OHV engine, it will be cheaper to build and smaller than the older OHC engines. It will also be cheaper to maintain (as OHV engines usually are).

It's designed for torque and will suite large box trucks (like the 26ft U Haul trucks) , RV's, trash trucks etc, and heavy duty pickup truck customers who don't want to pay the $10,000 premium for a Powerstroke diesel.

I think that it would be a complete waste of time to stick it in a light duty pickup or a car as the ecoboost V6 makes ridiculous horse power already.
I kind of dig it. It's a nice homage to the powerstroke 7.3 liter which I have in my 2002 F350. Ford makes good trucks. Mine has has 346000 miles and runs like a very loud and clattery swiss clock.

[unsprung]

Mr Tidy said:

I don't know how relevant it is these days, but back in 1977 I spent a month in Canada with some relatives who had a farm.

They had a Ford F100 pick-up with a 5.7 litre V8 and a manual box, which was a real treat to drive when I was 18!

But as farmers they could use dyed fuel in the pick-up the same as in their tractors, which was taxed much lower.

So their 6.6 litre Chrysler Newport was just for special occasions, or when they needed more than 3 seats!

If that sort of tax regime still exists then maybe a 7.3 litre petrol V8 pick-up might make sense.

That sounds like an idyllic visit. In 1977 there will have been no mobile phones, no consumer email, and no world wide web. Travel across the Atlantic was truly a journey to another land.

Right. In the US market, this large-displacement petrol V8 makes sense to fleet managers and to company owners for reasons of cost.

- They are more affordable to purchase or lease (than the equivalent diesel vehicle)
- Petrol costs less than diesel
- Maintenance costs will be lower

Additionally, stations with petrol pumps are ubiquitous; those with diesel are not. Petrol is also better on particulate emissions.

Meanwhile, the engineering of these large-displacement petrol V8s allows them to mimic to a certain degree one of the desirable characteristics of diesel engines: the torque profile. A lot of torque is available early on, at low RPMs.

These commercial trucks are intended to work on and around job sites. They are not designed to drive thousands of miles per week, like a long-distance road-going HGV or tractor trailer. For that use-case, a diesel platform is best.

It is important to understand that the big news here is not about being large and being petrol. It's about being a particular kind of large displacement petrol V8. This engine is designed, as others have noted, to be a workhorse. It is designed for low RPMs and for extreme loads -- conditions where ordinary V8s might experience detonation and extreme wear.

That's why this Ford unit is under-stressed in output. It has piston-cooling jets. It has a forged steel crankshaft, but a cast iron block with over-sized main bearings. It assumes the worst sort of demands that are beyond what almost any consumer vehicle will experience.

The appeal of this engine has nothing to do with red-dye and tax regimens and farmers. In the US, the agricultural sector is allowed a tax rebate / abatement on diesel fuel (which is dyed red), but there is no equivalent scheme for petrol.

[samj2014]

ghost83 said:

America rly is great I wish they would bring these big trucks here!

You have to laugh that over there you have things like this you don’t pay for bags at Walmart you can legally own a AR10/15 and fuel is stupidly cheap,

yet in England and the eu we get totally bent over

You're a bit off the money. You couldn't even fit one of these things on the majority of British roads. Most folk that have these need them for work - hauling things on dirt roads, or for towing massive caravans, which definitely wouldn't fit on British roads.
In the UK, all the roads are paved, so vans make much more sense for most folk and in reality are way more practical. Most people in the UK have no need for anything with 4wd, let alone something that huge.

[alabbasi]

samj2014 said:

You're a bit off the money. You couldn't even fit one of these things on the majority of British roads. Most folk that have these need them for work - hauling things on dirt roads, or for towing massive caravans, which definitely wouldn't fit on British roads.
In the UK, all the roads are paved, so vans make much more sense for most folk and in reality are way more practical. Most people in the UK have no need for anything with 4wd, let alone something that huge.

Yep, different horses for different courses. I can't imagine driving anything bigger than an S class in the UK without it being a giant pain in the rear. These trucks don't have good turning radius. I would not want to live with it as my only vehicle in Texas let alone London.

[300bhp/ton]

samj2014 said:

ghost83 said:

America rly is great I wish they would bring these big trucks here!

You have to laugh that over there you have things like this you don’t pay for bags at Walmart you can legally own a AR10/15 and fuel is stupidly cheap,

yet in England and the eu we get totally bent over

You're a bit off the money. You couldn't even fit one of these things on the majority of British roads. Most folk that have these need them for work - hauling things on dirt roads, or for towing massive caravans, which definitely wouldn't fit on British roads.
In the UK, all the roads are paved, so vans make much more sense for most folk and in reality are way more practical. Most people in the UK have no need for anything with 4wd, let alone something that huge.

Sorry but that is stereotypical nonsense!!

There are plenty of "large" vehicles in the UK. Plenty of lorries and buses. And yes, they do use narrow country lanes. Not to mention many large vans. A hi-top LWB Sprinter will have a similar footprint to many US pickups.

Saying you couldn't even fit one of these things on the majority of British roads is, well, rather dim tbh.

Most roads in the USA are also paved.

And since when should people have to justify a need in order to own or use something?

[300bhp/ton]

JimbobVFR said:

Based on the vehicles it's going in I think this is actually another victim of the downsizing trend. Looks to be replacing the previous Triton V10 like my dad has in his Winnebago.

Not really sure it is fair to claim downsizing. The Triton was only 6.8 litres vs 7.3, that isn't downsizing. The Triton might have been a V10, but that was because it was based on the Ford Modular motor. I believe the 5.4 V8 and 6.8 V10 share the same cylinder capacity. This new engine is certainly a step up from the Triton.

[tr7v8]

alabbasi said:

samj2014 said:

You're a bit off the money. You couldn't even fit one of these things on the majority of British roads. Most folk that have these need them for work - hauling things on dirt roads, or for towing massive caravans, which definitely wouldn't fit on British roads.
In the UK, all the roads are paved, so vans make much more sense for most folk and in reality are way more practical. Most people in the UK have no need for anything with 4wd, let alone something that huge.

Yep, different horses for different courses. I can't imagine driving anything bigger than an S class in the UK without it being a giant pain in the rear. These trucks don't have good turning radius. I would not want to live with it as my only vehicle in Texas let alone London.

As e have all said earlier these are for small to mid size trucks. Quite large trucks in our terms. These are work vehicles no one would use it as their private transport even in Texas. Biggest truck that I know individuals owning in Texas is F150 & the Dodge equivalent & they are weekend vehicles used for towing RVs & boats. Multi car ownership is much more common in the US than in Europe. Dailies are typically Toyota Camry's, mid size Honda & Hyundai etc.