RE: Mercedes S600 Coupe (C140) | The Brave Pill

[RoverP6B]

Nothing to fear here. The M120 V12 is statistically the most reliable engine Mercedes-Benz has ever produced in terms of warranty claims (or in this case, lack thereof). So vibration-free you can balance a coin on edge on the manifold, prod the throttle and the coin will stay upright. Stick a trick set of headers on and it'll howl like a Zonda too.

[0a]

I love the Mercedes source camera-on-engine comparison here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktQ2LcQNrfo

[apm142001]

Venisonpie said:

Love the saloons of this era but the coupe's look awkward and the wheels do it no favours.
Great engine though.

Couldn't agree more, the engine is definitely the best bit. Suppose this is probably a lot cheaper than an SL600 though...

Interesting that this V12 produces more power than the n/a V12 in the later CL600; why would Mercedes have done that?

[beanoir]

Yes, but look at how they sound like with some new exhaust parts!!!

https://www.motor1.com/news/63018/aftermarket-exha...

[RoverP6B]

apm142001 said:

Interesting that this V12 produces more power than the n/a V12 in the later CL600; why would Mercedes have done that?

Cost! The M120 is a quad-cam unit which has relatively little in common with any other M-B engine of that time. I believe the heads are a development of the M104 I6, but that's as far as it goes. They axed the M104, M120 and the quad-cam M119 V8 in favour of a modular V6/V8/V12 family with SOHC 3-valve heads. The V6 was a 90-degree unit based on the V8, and the V8 also spawned a 3-valve SOHC 4-cylinder. The M137 is nothing like as exotic, robust or expensive as the M120.

[Roger Irrelevant]

Thirteen grand (or anything remotely near it), for this is beyond the realms of bravery, most of the way through recklessness and nearing the border of insanity. IMO of course. I suppose like most cars of this type, though, that if you had a thing for them when you were younger but not a hope of buying one, and now find yourself flush, then the brutalist looks, woeful mpg, average-by-modern-standards performance and considerable money pit potential will be of little concern.

[ARobinson]

Ugly, not at all exciting to drive, financially ruinous and not particularly well appointed. Where do I sign up?

Knock a 1 off the beginning of the price and it becomes marginally more appealing.

Financial ruin should only start after purchase...

[RoverP6B]

Some people really should hand in their PHer cards on the way out. It may not be the ultimate in handling or stonking straight-line performance, but the W/C140 V12s were arguably peak car in terms of quality of engineering. An incredibly complex car for its time yet which has proven extremely reliable and durable... and surely the Zonda link has to count for something?

[Touring442]

RoverP6B said:

Some people really should hand in their PHer cards on the way out. It may not be the ultimate in handling or stonking straight-line performance, but the W/C140 V12s were arguably peak car in terms of quality of engineering. An incredibly complex car for its time yet which has proven extremely reliable and durable... and surely the Zonda link has to count for something?

I know what you're saying, but cars like this are so much better when they're 3 grand or less. Look at all the old shi....classics you can buy for £2995. E65 745i's, supercharged V8 Jags, even a running/working 215 CL500 which is a much prettier car. That was the last really beautiful Merc and was itself a technological tour de force. Now they're worth fk all.

Two years ago, a bloke I sort of know almost couldn't give away a 1993 CL500. Solid, all working, well historied but tatty wings - sold it for 1200 quid. That's the level for these cars but as with anything old, a clever salesman will sucker some fool in.

To find the value of this CL, stick on Ebay on a two day sale. 3-4 grand is my guess.

[RoverP6B]

I wouldn't have an E65 745i over a W140 S600 (and I say that as an E66 760Li owner). Nor would I touch the later CLs - nowhere NEAR as well-built as the C140. X308 Jags are very pretty but also very rot-prone, alas, and just aren't anywhere near the Benz V12 in performance terms. The X350/358 is a bit better but it's not a good-looking car and the interior feels like that of an X-type. Values of anything powered by the M120 are only going to head one way from here, and in five years you'll be reflecting on how idiotic it was to reject a good C140 600 for under £50k...

[pSyCoSiS]

Never had the pleasure of owning a C140, but had plenty of W140s over the years. I think these are the most solid Mercedes ever made (and I've had quite a few across their model range). Personally, they do look better in saloon guise and has some serious presence about them.

My favourite (which i regret selling to this day), was a 1992 600 SEL with the 'full fat' 408 BHP V12 M120 engine. Back in the early 90s, most range-topping supercars didn't even have that sort of power.

They reduced the power from around late-1993 to 389 BHP, to keep it within certain emission parameters I believe?

Generally, the M120 is bullet-proof. It was very over-engineered, and I showed that coin trick to quite a few people when I owned it, to demonstrate how turbine smooth these engines really are. Apart from blocked cats, mine never went wrong.

But, those early models are crying out for a 5 speed gearbox.

Agreed they can look under-wheeled. In my opinion, some of the best wheels for this are the period, staggered Brabus 3 spoke split rims.

[virgilio]

RoverP6B said:

Some people really should hand in their PHer cards on the way out. It may not be the ultimate in handling or stonking straight-line performance, but the W/C140 V12s were arguably peak car in terms of quality of engineering. An incredibly complex car for its time yet which has proven extremely reliable and durable... and surely the Zonda link has to count for something?

Amen. “peak car” perfectly defines the W/C140!

[pSyCoSiS]

RoverP6B said:

I wouldn't have an E65 745i over a W140 S600 (and I say that as an E66 760Li owner). Nor would I touch the later CLs - nowhere NEAR as well-built as the C140. X308 Jags are very pretty but also very rot-prone, alas, and just aren't anywhere near the Benz V12 in performance terms. The X350/358 is a bit better but it's not a good-looking car and the interior feels like that of an X-type. Values of anything powered by the M120 are only going to head one way from here, and in five years you'll be reflecting on how idiotic it was to reject a good C140 600 for under £50k...

Agree, but I do think the CL215 are good cars. Interior quality is decent, the ride is smooth and the power is more than adequate from the V8 and V12 units. They also have a fantastic amount of kit, for very little money. That ABC suspension can be a pain in the ass though!

Had a few X350s, and I feel their interiors are also nice, pretty solid and way better than the X Type.

But yes, the M120 is some engine and anything with that will no doubt be very valuable in years to come.

[alex.baker89]

HardtopManual said:

Segue.

A Segway is an electronic device for moving fat people and tourists.

Thank you for saying it first. I felt too guilty to point it out!

[BigBen]

ARobinson said:

not particularly well appointed. Where do I sign up?

What do you suppose it is missing compared to a more modern car?

[RoverP6B]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I think that, if they were going to fall apart, they would have done so by now... corrosion isn't a major problem, the biodegradable wiring looms have been sorted... the one thing that could heavily restrict their usability is anti-ICE environmental legislation.

[Dapster]

virgilio said:

RoverP6B said:

Some people really should hand in their PHer cards on the way out. It may not be the ultimate in handling or stonking straight-line performance, but the W/C140 V12s were arguably peak car in terms of quality of engineering. An incredibly complex car for its time yet which has proven extremely reliable and durable... and surely the Zonda link has to count for something?

Amen. “peak car” perfectly defines the W/C140!

Back in the mid 90's my father had one of these for a day as a little favour from his dealer who he'd been a loyal customer of over the years. I had a little go in it and it was immense in every sense. Ridiculous straight line performance with the absence of any drama - all you had was a distant roar and all the dials going bananas. Rev counter flying to the red line, econometer on the stop at "0", and the speedo racing around like the tacho of any other car. The corners were irrelevant - you just lent into them, flowing A roads were fine, anything else was just asking too much. But it's sweet spot was obvious. Left arm on the centre armrest, right elbow on the door, finger tips on the wheel, shifter in drive and just waft.

It was a style anti-statement, but as a luxury continent crusher, it was in another league.

[anonymous-user]

beanoir said:

Yes, but look at how they sound like with some new exhaust parts!!!

https://www.motor1.com/news/63018/aftermarket-exha...

Sounds wonderful - you need a 12 for that - almost 1970s F1-like toned down a bit for public road.

[Touring442]

RoverP6B said:

I wouldn't have an E65 745i over a W140 S600 (and I say that as an E66 760Li owner). Nor would I touch the later CLs - nowhere NEAR as well-built as the C140. X308 Jags are very pretty but also very rot-prone, alas, and just aren't anywhere near the Benz V12 in performance terms. The X350/358 is a bit better but it's not a good-looking car and the interior feels like that of an X-type. Values of anything powered by the M120 are only going to head one way from here, and in five years you'll be reflecting on how idiotic it was to reject a good C140 600 for under £50k...

The E65 will be 20 years old in 18 months.

They're going to be one of those curiosities from the 2000's with a bit of a cult following, but only the pre facelift I reckon. The 140 saloon/Coupe will be up there as well.

I doubt CL's will make 50+ grand anytime soon. They're just too ugly. The C126 hasn't really got there yet and they've been around for nearly 40 years. A black 560SEC is 500 times more desirable despite not being as good as a 140. Even the most desirable Mercedes Coupe - the 280 SE 3.5 is only just nudging 100 grand.

[Dapster]

Augustus Windsock said:

....Am I alone in thinking that the view from the rear 1/4 is reminiscent of a RR Camargue....

As an aside, Pininfarina made a 1 off Mercedes 300 SEL 6.3 for a Dutch collector in 1969.

Then 6 years later, Pininfarina penned the Camargue