RE: McLaren plots 720S Longtail for 2020

[mikey k]

mgbond said:

I Drove a 720s on one of those experience days, very nice and quick car (although you couldn't open it right up) but the 458 I drove after it was so much more of a thrilling drive. When I drove the 720s it really felt like it had no front and loads of rear, like you were sitting over the front wheels (also looks like this on outside the car), will the LT make this look even worse?

The no front thing is done on purpose so you have a clear view down the road. You probably noticed the only bit you could see out the screen was the top of the wing directly above the wheel. So you know exactly where the wheel is.
Loads of rear is inevitable with a mid engine V8 with a gearbox stuck on the back. To some it might look unbalanced, driving it the balance on cornering is superb. Shame you didn't get it at full tilt. I have along with a 458, Pista, R8 V10 and new DBS round Silverstone.
The 720 is ballistic, stops on a six pence and handles well, better than a 458, up there with the Pista. For me the Pista won as you feel what was going in a lot more. I'm certain the 7**LT will address that.

[mikey k]

Maldini35 said:

Each to their own

Not sure McLaren will be apologising anytime soon for making their super cars cars too fast....

As for too many cars that all look the same, they make x5 cars currently:

-Speedtail
-Senna
-720S
-GT
-600LT/570

All look pretty different to me.

Exactly and each one is easily distinguished, to my mind

[HJG]

Guvernator said:

Ferrari use the same engine across some of their current model range but have only been using that engine for a couple of years. McLaren have used the same engine for the best part of a decade. During that time, Ferrari have probably gone through at least 3 iterations. Also Ferrari make v12's.

All manufacturers part share but Ferrari's entry model is a very different beast to it's v12 range toppers.

To me the McLaren offerings are too similar baring a few tweaks to the styling and different power outputs. More worryingly there isn't a single car in there range that I'd pick over one of the rival's alternatives should I ever have the means.

Yes they've done a hell of a job getting to where they are in just 10 short but I wish they'd mix things up a bit more.

I can see why some people appreciate them and I still think the F1 is one of the best cars to ever be made but the current offerings just leave me a bit cold.

The 4,0L V8 is actually vastly different in both hardware and software to the 3,8L and even then the 3,8L variants differ between models. Yes all the V8s are flat plane 90deg but name me a better way to design a V8 for this market.

As I've said before, McLaren doesn't have a entire powertrain team for no reason!

[ghost83]

I rly don’t understand the hate for mclaren either! A British manufacturer standing up to the Italians and trouncing them

If I could I’d be buying one simple as

[justice_]

It is genuinely oddly British behaviour to bash failure and success equally. You wonder why anyone bothers..

Fortunate enough to test a 720s and it was absolutely mental. First time in anything beyond the track where I thought “that’s too fast”.

[TypeRTim]

Maldini35 said:

Good summation

Obviously cars are subjective and we all like different things but it is strange how a McLaren thread brings out so many detractors - every time, without fail.
Quite often they seem to be Ferrari or Lambo owners too (if their garages are to be believed).
Both fantastic brands making great cars.
Not sure why some of their owners feel so compelled to put the boot into McLaren.
Insecurity? Misplaced loyalty? Fear about residuals?
Who knows?
Bizarre.

Haters gonna hate I guess

I think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding of the product range. Many see the 540C/570S/600LT as separate models because of the naming. But is you look at it like this: Sport Series 540c, Sport Series 570s, Sport Series 600LT, it becomes clearer that they are variants of a single model.

Definitely cars are 100% subjective. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much competition. People place differing emphasis on different things. I wouldn't be seen dead in Ferrari (250 GTO or 512TR notwithstanding) or Porsche. Even though they are widely regarded as brilliant driver's cars.

I've even gone off Lambo over the last few years. The Aventador is great, but the Huracan is too similar to an R8 for me (plus, not a fan of the noise of a v10 road car) and the Urus is as cynical as cynical gets. It's a rebodied (ugly) Q7/Touareg/Cayenne/Bentayga clone. The fact they built that rather than the Estoque tells me everything I need to know about the company's direction and philosophy.

[Gameface]

TypeRTim said:

Not a fan of the noise of a v10 road car

Have you driven one? Have you heard one at 8000rpm?

TypeRTim said:

The Urus is as cynical as cynical gets. It's a rebodied (ugly) Q7/Touareg/Cayenne/Bentayga clone. The fact they built that rather than the Estoque tells me everything I need to know about the company's direction and philosophy.

No, it tells you everything you need to know about market forces.

[Matty3]

10 out of the 87 posts on this thread already Gameface - admit it man, you are obsessed with McLarens! - get out and buy one

[TypeRTim]

Gameface said:

Have you driven one? Have you heard one at 8000rpm?

No, it tells you everything you need to know about market forces.

I've not driven one. I have heard one at full chat. Not a fan. Prefer a v12. Personal preference.

The Urus is so far removed from the lambo DNA that it is laughable, in the same way that the Cullinan is so far removed from the Rolls Royce DNA that it is ridiculous. People will probably bring up the LM001/LM002 in it's defence, but that was designed as military vehicle to try and win the contract for the US Military that eventually went to GM and the HumVee.

It is nothing more than a cynical profit grab (imho).

[Maldini35]

Lamborghini are an interesting comparison.
I love what the brand used to stand for :
‘up yours Ferrari’

But things have definitely changed under Audi ownership.

The cars are much better built but it does feel like something has been lost.
I’ve seen the Huracan production line which
is 15 yards from the Audi R8 line, running in direct parallel, with line workers sharing the parts bins in the middle.
It did feel a bit cynical.

I’m pleased to see Lamborghini taking motorsport seriously now but knowing it’s effectively an Audi extension does take some of the shine off. No longer is it the small band of crazy, passionate Italian geniuses fighting against Teutonic domination but more a badge engineered fixed game. The Germans win whatever the result.
I was at Spa the other weekend for the 24h and it was very clear: Audi, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley - they take it in turns to win (with the help of BOP) all for the greater good of the fatherland, sorry, VAG. (bad joke - apologies)

Yes, Lamborghinis are now better cars and still an event to drive but I can’t un-see what I saw in the factory or un-hear what I heard in the boardroom (in a previous life) : segment domination, brand price ladders, consumer attitudinal coverage across brands etc.

It’s big business (trust me I know) but I believe at the heart of each brand there is soul - a little piece of the founder if you like.
I fear this soul is slowly dying.

Perhaps I’m wrong and maybe there are enough people within the brand who can resist the parent company diktats, but with brand strategy effectively out of their hands now it doesn’t look good.
I fear that increasingly it will be a rear guard action, playing in the margins to ‘Lambo-fy’ a given product with a slightly crazier interior and sharper exterior lines. No more sprezzatura.

I could be wrong (I hope I’m wrong) as Porsche and Bentley have flourished under VAG guidance it’s just Lamborghini that feels confused - to me anyway.
I guess without Audi there probably wouldn’t be a Lamborghini now so that’s a pretty big positive.

Don’t get me started on Maserati & Ferrari either

[E65Ross]

Maldini35 said:

Lamborghini are an interesting comparison.
I love what the brand used to stand for :
‘up yours Ferrari’

But things have definitely changed under Audi ownership.

The cars are much better built but it does feel like something has been lost.
I’ve seen the Huracan production line which
is 15 yards from the Audi R8 line, running in direct parallel, with line workers sharing the parts bins in the middle.
It did feel a bit cynical.

I’m pleased to see Lamborghini taking motorsport seriously now but knowing it’s effectively an Audi extension does take some of the shine off. No longer is it the small band of crazy, passionate Italian geniuses fighting against Teutonic domination but more a badge engineered fixed game. The Germans win whatever the result.
I was at Spa the other weekend for the 24h and it was very clear: Audi, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bentley - they take it in turns to win (with the help of BOP) all for the greater good of the fatherland, sorry, VAG. (bad joke - apologies)

Yes, Lamborghinis are now better cars and still an event to drive but I can’t un-see what I saw in the factory or un-hear what I heard in the boardroom (in a previous life) : segment domination, brand price ladders, consumer attitudinal coverage across brands etc.

It’s big business (trust me I know) but I believe at the heart of each brand there is soul - a little piece of the founder if you like.
I fear this soul is slowly dying.

Perhaps I’m wrong and maybe there are enough people within the brand who can resist the parent company diktats, but with brand strategy effectively out of their hands now it doesn’t look good.
I fear that increasingly it will be a rear guard action, playing in the margins to ‘Lambo-fy’ a given product with a slightly crazier interior and sharper exterior lines. No more sprezzatura.

I could be wrong (I hope I’m wrong) as Porsche and Bentley have flourished under VAG guidance it’s just Lamborghini that feels confused - to me anyway.
I guess without Audi there probably wouldn’t be a Lamborghini now so that’s a pretty big positive.

Don’t get me started on Maserati & Ferrari either

Clearly the market doesn't agree, they're doing incredibly well compared to pre-Audi days. The only cars that really float my boat pre-Audi is the Miura and the Diablo. I think Lambo are still the most flamboyant of the supercar makers.

And so the production lines are close? Why is that an issue? Because it makes sense to do it that way? Because it shares its DNA with another mid-engined V10 supercar?

[TypeRTim]

E65Ross said:

Clearly the market doesn't agree, they're doing incredibly well compared to pre-Audi days. The only cars that really float my boat pre-Audi is the Miura and the Diablo. I think Lambo are still the most flamboyant of the supercar makers.

And so the production lines are close? Why is that an issue? Because it makes sense to do it that way? Because it shares its DNA with another mid-engined V10 supercar?

The point is, people complain that the Mclaren products use a similar set of components and are therefore boring, unimaginative and are being announced/released at a rate of 3 cars a minute.

But when pointed out that some of their favoured brands use the exact same tactics - to the extent that they are being built on production lines next to cars from sister brands using the same parts bins - they seem to be blind to it. The Huracan can be seen as an badge engineered R8 to a certain extent.

Edited by TypeRTim on Wednesday 7th August 12:59

[Gameface]

TypeRTim said:

I've not driven one. I have heard one at full chat. Not a fan. Prefer a v12. Personal preference.

The Urus is so far removed from the lambo DNA that it is laughable, in the same way that the Cullinan is so far removed from the Rolls Royce DNA that it is ridiculous. People will probably bring up the LM001/LM002 in it's defence, but that was designed as military vehicle to try and win the contract for the US Military that eventually went to GM and the HumVee.

It is nothing more than a cynical profit grab (imho).

You're the only person I've heard of who doesn't like a V10 scream. Lexus LFA do nothing for you noise wise either?

Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Maserati, Bentley and Rolls Royce and Lamborghini are making SUV's because that's what the market dictates. Simple as that.

They're all wrong are they?

[TypeRTim]

Gameface said:

You're the only person I've heard of who doesn't like a V10 scream. Lexus LFA do nothing for you noise wise either?

Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Maserati, Bentley and Rolls Royce and Lamborghini are making SUV's because that's what the market dictates. Simple as that.

They're all wrong are they?

First for everything I guess! And no, the LFA doesn't really do much for me to be honest. I can appreciate it's achievement in an engineering sense, but the sound does nothing for me. The exhaust note of the 812 superfast's v12 at full chat however....

The market may be dictating SUVs, but that doesnt stop it from diluting the brand or being any less of a cash grab. They are doing it to chase profit margins, rather than to nurture and better the soul of the brand. Plus they are all absolutely gopping 2 tonne plus monstrosities.

[E65Ross]

TypeRTim said:

......rather than to nurture and better the soul of the brand....

I think a huge SUV, in many respects, could be suitable for Lambo....They have a history of making bonkers, "pointless", over the top cars....I'm not a fan, I saw one on Sunday in Chilworth (along with about 7 or 8 other Lambos!) and it did nothing for me. But I don't bemoan the fact it exists.

[TypeRTim]

E65Ross said:

I think a huge SUV, in many respects, could be suitable for Lambo....

In part i think you are right. But the fact is, the Urus is pretty much a badge engineered Cayenne Turbo. Ok, the engine is more powerful, but that can be unlocked with ECU tweaks and basic breathing modifications.

If it was a mid-engined Dakar Rally style SUV with the v10 from the Huracan or the v12 from the Aventador... Now that would seem less cynical to me.

But i don't like SUVs in principal anyway. They are bloated, heavy awful things.

[E65Ross]

TypeRTim said:

E65Ross said:

I think a huge SUV, in many respects, could be suitable for Lambo....

In part i think you are right. But the fact is, the Urus is pretty much a badge engineered Cayenne Turbo. Ok, the engine is more powerful, but that can be unlocked with ECU tweaks and basic breathing modifications.

If it was a mid-engined Dakar Rally style SUV with the v10 from the Huracan or the v12 from the Aventador... Now that would seem less cynical to me.

But i don't like SUVs in principal anyway. They are bloated, heavy awful things.

It's the same as a Cayenne except for, as you say, the engine. And the brakes, suspension, interior, wheels and brakes. Oh, and the bodywork. But I get your point, but if you're doing it from a blank canvas, how would you have designed it differently so it would be a more popular car (ie would sell more) whilst still being economically viable? A mid-engined SUV..... Now there's a thing..... I can see why it hasn't caught on. Kinda like making an estate car and then filling up the boot so you can't use it, no?

[TypeRTim]

E65Ross said:

It's the same as a Cayenne except for, as you say, the engine. And the brakes, suspension, interior, wheels and brakes. Oh, and the bodywork. But I get your point, but if you're doing it from a blank canvas, how would you have designed it differently so it would be a more popular car (ie would sell more) whilst still being economically viable? A mid-engined SUV..... Now there's a thing..... I can see why it hasn't caught on. Kinda like making an estate car and then filling up the boot so you can't use it, no?

The engine is the same base engine as the Cayenne Turbo, with breathing and ECU modifications to make an extra ~100 bhp. Same as Golf GTi to Golf R engine.

Built on the same chassis platform as the Cayenne, Q7, Bentayga, Touareg. There will be a few bespoke parts to give it a different chassis tune, but nothing substantial.

Interior -> Different design, but still uses the same parts for switchgear, dials/digital cockpit, HVAC, Infotainment.

It's a bit like the Cupra Leon ST 300 4Drive. In reality it's a Golf R in all but name and body panels.

I quite simply wouldn't have made it, because as I said previously I hate SUVs.

What i would have done is something like the Huracan Sterrato. A 'proper' lambo off roader.

[E65Ross]

TypeRTim said:

What i would have done is something like the Huracan Sterrato. A 'proper' lambo off roader.

And that is why you aren't head of one of the worlds biggest automotive manufacturers It's bizarre how many people think manufacturers should make cars at a loss or significantly hurt their profit margins to please a few people who probably wouldn't buy it anyway.

Now, I just think that if they were to make an SUV "off the cuff", in reality, it wouldn't be much different from the Urus anyway, so why bother spend many, many £millions developing something which would ultimately be the same?

They are vastly different cars, just see reviews of the Urus vs the Bentayga etc, they are very different to drive from a dynamics perspective as well as refinement etc. If they drive very different, feel very different, and give different ownership propositions, why is that an issue they share some parts?

[TypeRTim]

E65Ross said:

They are vastly different cars, just see reviews of the Urus vs the Bentayga etc, they are very different to drive from a dynamics perspective as well as refinement etc. If they drive very different, feel very different, and give different ownership propositions, why is that an issue they share some parts?

Why do people then complain about Mclaren doing the same?