RE: Ford Focus RS (Mk3) | Spotted
Discussion
HM-2 said:
IIRC most/all of the "true" longitudinal Quattro Audis (and implementation of Quattro in other VW Group sub-brands) are still all permanent AWD, even without the Torsen T3 central differential (or the subsequent crown gear centre diff that's replaced it). Most of the non-sporting models use/used a T1 or T2 centre differential with a default 50/50 split and capability to apportion up to 75% of torque to either front or rear up until fairly recently. The newest crown gear system is used on the A6/7/8 as well as the S and RS models, is a 40/60 front/rear split by default but can apportion up to 70% forward and 80something rearward.
I don't know if the A4 has dropped this in favour of a more Haldex-like system now.
The R8 is something like 30/70 front/rear by default I think?
The R8 is certainly tail happy for a 4wd system :8 that would make sense. I don't know if the A4 has dropped this in favour of a more Haldex-like system now.
The R8 is something like 30/70 front/rear by default I think?
SidewaysSi said:
RacerMike said:
SidewaysSi said:
And for all this talk about OEM, let's not forget how shoddily engineered some cars are.
Shoddy in what sense?In most cases, though not all, they will do what they can given the many constraints they are under.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 15th August 09:43
To be clear, there is no such thing as ‘poor driving dynamics’ from any of the major OEMs. Sure…..there are uninspiring driving dynamics and there are ones that are overly safe, but that’s entirely intentional. However, no modern car goes to production without a significant amount of competitor benchmarking , and a huge amount of ride and handling tuning. Cost in this sense doesn’t really come into it. You have to spend time developing your damper curves, spring rates, yaw gains, and post tyre limit behaviour and you have to understand your positioning. Whether you want it positioned as uncompetitive for ride and handling or not, you still need to do the work to tune the cars driving behaviour. The cost is fixed.
Penny pinching comes into the suspension component design of course, so you can end up in a situation where your tuning options are limited by the type of suspension that has been costed for. But then the RS has fully independent rear suspension, so in this sense, it wasn’t in anyway cost limited…..it had basically the best basis for ride and handling tuning it’s possible to have in a hot hatch. And either way, you can still make a car with a really cheap suspension handle well. You’ll just be limited on achieving a ride attribute at the same time.
The RS was a car though that Ford spend around 4 years developing. The Ford Performance guys used our workshop at the Nurburgring way back in 2013 to do ride and handling development back then. The RS was basically a powertrain and dynamics tuning programme. The Mk3 Focus was already developed, so almost all of the time they spent was attribute tuning on the driveline, engine and chassis. In total, they spent 4 years benchmarking, tuning and assessing the driving dynamics. The level of effort they went to is clear in the series they ran on YouTube. They heavily benchmarked all the contemporary hot hatches and positioned the RS in a space they knew would appeal to people who wanted something different and more dynamic from a hot hatch. Bear in mind that at the time, the closest three in performance to the Ford (The A45, Golf R and RS3) were all positioned incredibly conservatively. The Golf was probably the most entertaining to drive, and even that was pretty safe.
So actually, in comparison to many OEMs (*cough* BMW *cough*) Ford spent a lot more on the way the RS drove than nearly everyone else. And it showed as the contemporary reviews all crowned it as a breakthrough in driving dynamics. The Civic subsequently beat it, but then that was launched a year after the Focus came out. I have no doubt Honda heavily benchmarked the RS and aimed to beat it. Which they did.
I’m sure you’ll tell me I’m wrong. But then what do I know. I’ve only worked in Vehicle Dynamics, and Dynamic Control Systems calibration for an OEM for 9 years so you’re probably right….
Alpinestars said:
HM-2 said:
IIRC most/all of the "true" longitudinal Quattro Audis (and implementation of Quattro in other VW Group sub-brands) are still all permanent AWD, even without the Torsen T3 central differential (or the subsequent crown gear centre diff that's replaced it). Most of the non-sporting models use/used a T1 or T2 centre differential with a default 50/50 split and capability to apportion up to 75% of torque to either front or rear up until fairly recently. The newest crown gear system is used on the A6/7/8 as well as the S and RS models, is a 40/60 front/rear split by default but can apportion up to 70% forward and 80something rearward.
I don't know if the A4 has dropped this in favour of a more Haldex-like system now.
The R8 is something like 30/70 front/rear by default I think?
The R8 is certainly tail happy for a 4wd system :8 that would make sense. I don't know if the A4 has dropped this in favour of a more Haldex-like system now.
The R8 is something like 30/70 front/rear by default I think?
RacerMike said:
So my understanding were that they both had a haldex centre.
In the case of the R8 at least (I don't know much about the Veyron as I think it's a totally different system), it's a permanent (but variable) split. Viscous coupling instead of a differential in the centre, but AFAIK always some drive being delivered to the front (5-35% springs to mind). I think Porsche use a similar system in the Carrera 4 and Turbo. The default torque split is actually 15/85 front/rear, not 30/70 though. So not the same as the other Quattro badged Audis, but similarly not the same as Haldex.Technical info here: http://m.audi-quattro-highlights.de/en/aqh/Technol...
RacerMike said:
The R8 and Veyron just have a 'hang on' front end. So my understanding were that they both had a haldex centre. Hence they'll feel more RWD in the same sense that a Golf feels more FWD as you are always led by the primary axle. Without an offset diff ratio between the two axles, you're limited to either fully locked (50:50) or fully open (0:100) or somewhere inbetween that.
I’d love to know what all that means. What do you mean by fully locked, fully open, or something in-between? That seems to cover all bases?Alpinestars said:
RacerMike said:
The R8 and Veyron just have a 'hang on' front end. So my understanding were that they both had a haldex centre. Hence they'll feel more RWD in the same sense that a Golf feels more FWD as you are always led by the primary axle. Without an offset diff ratio between the two axles, you're limited to either fully locked (50:50) or fully open (0:100) or somewhere inbetween that.
I’d love to know what all that means. What do you mean by fully locked, fully open, or something in-between? That seems to cover all bases?Fr:Rr
50:50 (100% locked)
40:60
30:70
20:80
10:90
0:100 (open)
But they're not capable of putting more than 50% of the torque to the front axle (unless the rear wheels have no grip at all)
blade7 said:
If it means there wont be 30 pages of Focus fanboy nonsense I'd call that good news.
You guys love this car, always here to talk about it 
Interesting stuff from Racermike. I'm yet to ever feel my RS being FWD as it doesn't show any of those usual FWD traits such as my Megane does but I suppose it must be when on a smooth, dry straight road.
On track or on the road the RS just feels AWD. My impreza feels no different on a straight even though I believe it is full time AWD and it understeers more than the RS.
I'd imagine other manufacturers will also follow suit with similar systems to the twinster as Mercedes have. Is the new m135i AWD system at all similar?
Ahbefive said:
blade7 said:
If it means there wont be 30 pages of Focus fanboy nonsense I'd call that good news.
You guys love this car, always here to talk about it Interesting stuff from Racermike. I'm yet to ever feel my RS being FWD as it doesn't show any of those usual FWD traits such as my Megane does but I suppose it must be when on a smooth, dry straight road.
On track or on the road the RS just feels AWD. My impreza feels no different on a straight even though I believe it is full time AWD and it understeers more than the RS.
I'd imagine other manufacturers will also follow suit with similar systems to the twinster as Mercedes have. Is the new m135i AWD system at all similar?
Think there’s at least one more hatch in the pipeline with the same diff as the Merc, but I can’t really say what it is. Nothing I’ve worked on, but the 4WD hot hatch market will be forever changed as a result of the Focus.
RacerMike said:
SidewaysSi said:
RacerMike said:
SidewaysSi said:
And for all this talk about OEM, let's not forget how shoddily engineered some cars are.
Shoddy in what sense?In most cases, though not all, they will do what they can given the many constraints they are under.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 15th August 09:43
To be clear, there is no such thing as ‘poor driving dynamics’ from any of the major OEMs. Sure…..there are uninspiring driving dynamics and there are ones that are overly safe, but that’s entirely intentional. However, no modern car goes to production without a significant amount of competitor benchmarking , and a huge amount of ride and handling tuning. Cost in this sense doesn’t really come into it. You have to spend time developing your damper curves, spring rates, yaw gains, and post tyre limit behaviour and you have to understand your positioning. Whether you want it positioned as uncompetitive for ride and handling or not, you still need to do the work to tune the cars driving behaviour. The cost is fixed.
Penny pinching comes into the suspension component design of course, so you can end up in a situation where your tuning options are limited by the type of suspension that has been costed for. But then the RS has fully independent rear suspension, so in this sense, it wasn’t in anyway cost limited…..it had basically the best basis for ride and handling tuning it’s possible to have in a hot hatch. And either way, you can still make a car with a really cheap suspension handle well. You’ll just be limited on achieving a ride attribute at the same time.
The RS was a car though that Ford spend around 4 years developing. The Ford Performance guys used our workshop at the Nurburgring way back in 2013 to do ride and handling development back then. The RS was basically a powertrain and dynamics tuning programme. The Mk3 Focus was already developed, so almost all of the time they spent was attribute tuning on the driveline, engine and chassis. In total, they spent 4 years benchmarking, tuning and assessing the driving dynamics. The level of effort they went to is clear in the series they ran on YouTube. They heavily benchmarked all the contemporary hot hatches and positioned the RS in a space they knew would appeal to people who wanted something different and more dynamic from a hot hatch. Bear in mind that at the time, the closest three in performance to the Ford (The A45, Golf R and RS3) were all positioned incredibly conservatively. The Golf was probably the most entertaining to drive, and even that was pretty safe.
So actually, in comparison to many OEMs (*cough* BMW *cough*) Ford spent a lot more on the way the RS drove than nearly everyone else. And it showed as the contemporary reviews all crowned it as a breakthrough in driving dynamics. The Civic subsequently beat it, but then that was launched a year after the Focus came out. I have no doubt Honda heavily benchmarked the RS and aimed to beat it. Which they did.
I’m sure you’ll tell me I’m wrong. But then what do I know. I’ve only worked in Vehicle Dynamics, and Dynamic Control Systems calibration for an OEM for 9 years so you’re probably right….
RacerMike said:
The guys at Ford did a decent job of calibrating it right?! I really enjoyed owning mine. It did absolutely everything I ever wanted an AWD hatch to do.
Think there’s at least one more hatch in the pipeline with the same diff as the Merc, but I can’t really say what it is. Nothing I’ve worked on, but the 4WD hot hatch market will be forever changed as a result of the Focus.
That's highly likely to be a BMW. However what i look forward to (although worry its a 50/50 chance) is the 2021 replacement of the Focus RS. Now if they were to implement electric motors at the (like Autocar has mentioned) back wheels..then that would be very interesting- especially when balanced out with aftermarket lightening parts that RS owners currency employ now. jThink there’s at least one more hatch in the pipeline with the same diff as the Merc, but I can’t really say what it is. Nothing I’ve worked on, but the 4WD hot hatch market will be forever changed as a result of the Focus.
blade7 said:
I'd have considered buying one if they didn't look so dull.
I bought one partly because it isn’t “in your face”, and I suspect a lot of older drivers did the same, so maybe that was a clever move by ford.I bought it as a 50th birthday present to my self, at my age, I really don’t get excited by something that looks like a Barry boy should be driving.
In 2 and a half years it’s been reliable and still makes me smile when I drive it. Paid £34000 for it in March 17, and it’s probably depreciated less than £3000 a year so far.
mikeouk said:
blade7 said:
I'd have considered buying one if they didn't look so dull.
I bought one partly because it isn’t “in your face”, and I suspect a lot of older drivers did the same, so maybe that was a clever move by ford.I bought it as a 50th birthday present to my self, at my age, I really don’t get excited by something that looks like a Barry boy should be driving.
In 2 and a half years it’s been reliable and still makes me smile when I drive it. Paid £34000 for it in March 17, and it’s probably depreciated less than £3000 a year so far.
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