RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote

RE: Where is Europe's Corvette? PH Footnote

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Discussion

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Donbot said:
Go on and tell us oh wise one . . .
hehe I suppose my comment deserved that, ouch!

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Exige77 said:
GM are using the Corvette as a halo model and will probably lose money on it.
Come now: Does "Hey, guys, let's make no profit" sound like the US of A? wink

Also: any loss-leading by one OEM can be copied by some other OEM.

BigChiefmuffinAgain

1,054 posts

97 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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I think one unmentioned reason that the Americans can offer so much is that they have the infrastructure to achieve the economy of scales. You can design a "cheap" sports car which breaks even on high volumes but you can only sell these volumes if you have a large dealer network. GM and Ford can sell corvettes and Mustangs in their thousands as they have this network, supported by selling the bread and butter stuff. Lotus never will so there would be no point in even trying.

sidewinder500

1,096 posts

93 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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unsprung said:
No post above has provided the correct answer.

(although two or three comments are very close)

The answer is not about comparisons of tax that are somehow "unfair". It's not about market size (the EU market has many more households than the US). It's not about SUVs (two-thirds of the US market is SUVs and light trucks). It's not about development costs. It's not about interior aesthetics. It's not about journalists.
What's it about then?

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Roll on Brexit and US trade deal lick

HardtopManual

2,404 posts

165 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Unfortunately, it would bomb. Some supposed motoring journalist would hunt out a piece of hard, shiny plastic in the interior, in a place most people would never see, tell Joe Public that the interior is crap and that would be that.

sidewinder500

1,096 posts

93 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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HardtopManual said:
Unfortunately, it would bomb. Some supposed motoring journalist would hunt out a piece of hard, shiny plastic in the interior, in a place most people would never see, tell Joe Public that the interior is crap and that would be that.
Well, to be honest, sit in a "base" AMG GT, you will see a lot of shiny plastic and their like...
That's the reason for the options list

Niffty951

2,333 posts

227 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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The original media chatter would have had you believe that the baby Aston 'AMV8' was aimed at that gap, a few years later the Jaguar F type focused on the spot but I can't think of anything post Cerbera that actually hit the mark.

The Aston was slow, ridiculously stiff but still poor handing and over expensive. The F-type had the looks but chassis dynamics from a 30 year old saloon car and again couldn't bring it in on price.

Short of the seemingly impossible return of TVR to the market they left. Lotus do seem to me to be the best placed company to do it.. if only they could shed 20% off their list prices and make a car slightly more livable with for the day to day. I don't like spinal bifida.

Exige77

6,518 posts

190 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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unsprung said:
Exige77 said:
GM are using the Corvette as a halo model and will probably lose money on it.
Come now: Does "Hey, guys, let's make no profit" sound like the US of A? wink

Also: any loss-leading by one OEM can be copied by some other OEM.
Read up on GM’s and Chrysler’s past smile

Making no profit on the Corvette doesn’t mean they are not planning on making money on other cars.

Maybe you’re just trolling ?

samoht

5,633 posts

145 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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I reckon there are a few issues:
1) +20% VAT takes your nominal £50k Lotus Corvette to £60k straight away (+price)
2) Europe is still a fragmented market - hard to create a brand, product and dealership network to address all of it (-volumes)
3) The cost of doing business here is higher than the US, so 'sales costs' are higher (eg your Paris dealership has to obey French labour laws, etc etc) (+price)
4) The above is greatly amplified because of the self-reinforcing vicious circle of price/volume. The car becomes a bit more expensive due to the above factors, quite a lot fewer people can afford it, volumes go down, fixed costs per unit go up, the price goes up again, even more customers drop out, etc until the price stabilises at a bit over £100k and it's a McLaren or NSX. You're probably on the steepest part of the slope on the far side of the bell curve of disposable income here, so each extra £10k on the sticker could knock out a big chunk of the potential market.

I think the early R35 GTR is a great comparison, that was similarly unreasonably quick for the money at launch and got compared to cars costing twice as much. Of course, that's also based on mass-market Skyline mechanicals, albeit highly evolved.


sideways man

1,307 posts

136 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Would it be cheaper just to move to the US and buy a corvette once there? It’s not just buying the car, fuel is cheap too...

Disclaimer: I have no idea what living costs are compared to the uk laugh

Edited by sideways man on Sunday 18th August 13:19

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Earlier in this thread, somebody commented that if a value-for-money performance car would be viable in Europe, an OEM would already have offered this. And that comment, for me, was profound.

Although the mid-engined architecture of the C8 Corvette is new, there is nothing new about the tremendous value delivered to consumers by Corvette over the years. And by the likes of Camaro, Challenger, and Mustang. We're talking half a century now.

Over on the other C8 Corvette thread, a PHer waxes poetic about hiring a C7 Z06 while visiting the States. The appeal of its uncommon thrills and everyday utility were, she wrote, "a no-brainer."

So this topic is not really about the C8. It's about macroeconomics and about distinct cultures or philosophies.

In this thread, people have mentioned fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.

Pop over to Cincinnati, Ohio, and visit one of those cars and coffee events on the weekend. Inform folks there that, as of today, everybody must pay more for petrol. Double, treble, and even greater. Suddenly, a lot of car enthusiasts in Cincinnati, Ohio, are not so interested in a V8 performance car.

Are household incomes the same on both sides of the Atlantic? If not, deduct 20, 30 or 40 percent from the Cincinnati pay packet. How many folks at the cars and coffee event now intend to buy any sort of performance car?

Our redefined sports car segment is now much smaller and possibly unsustainable. And this becomes a vicious cycle. As another person has noted here, when sales volume declines, unit costs rise.

TL;DR: it's about purchasing power and/or disposable income



anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Have you not considered that, just as the 500bhp Corvette may be particularly suited to wider American roads, the 250bhp Alpine may be particularly fun on the more narrow British and Continental roads? (I know this is a broad generalisation)

It seems to me that for about £50k, both Americans and Europeans can buy a good looking, fast sportscar, usable everyday, that suits the target market.

Cars aren’t bought by the yard... does it matter that theres has a V8, if ‘ours’ is more fun at the lower speeds found here?

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 18th August 13:58

chickensoup

469 posts

254 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Given the amount of consultancy Lotus do, the £60K Esprit might be out there, but not in a lotus badge

JxJ Jr.

652 posts

69 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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unsprung said:
No post above has provided the correct answer....fuel costs. And this, imo, is where the argument truly begins.
Sorry, but neither have you. The likes of the Corvette, and Camaro, Mustang, etc. as you mention, have been viable and successful because they take basic components from mainstream vehicles, originally cars then increasingly trucks (i.e. V8 engines). The equivalent in Europe has and does exist - it's Z3/Z4, SLK, etc. Unsurprisingly they are largely powered by the same engines available in European brand's mainstream lineup, ditto Japanese cars. The same argument works in other ways, it's why US companies cannot offer viable small-engined, RWD sports cars and no one other than the Germans can offer V12s.

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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ReaperCushions said:
You mentioned in the article why it doesn’t work... economies of scale. End of.
How and why?

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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JxJ Jr. said:
Sorry, but neither have you. The likes of the Corvette, and Camaro, Mustang, etc. as you mention, have been viable and successful because they take basic components from mainstream vehicles, originally cars then increasingly trucks (i.e. V8 engines). The equivalent in Europe has and does exist - it's Z3/Z4, SLK, etc. Unsurprisingly they are largely powered by the same engines available in European brand's mainstream lineup, ditto Japanese cars. The same argument works in other ways, it's why US companies cannot offer viable small-engined, RWD sports cars and no one other than the Germans can offer V12s.
I don't mind having a difference of opinion. If you'd like to believe that EU consumers are shopping cars with the same wallet and the same operating costs, as their US cousins, go ahead. I, however, don't see the data to support that.

Poppiecock

943 posts

57 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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We can see from a lot of posts on this forum that a V8 petrol sportscar has no future, at least for the UK market.

We are suffering from an overload of greenwash with people now wanting a Tesla Model 3 rather than a thirsty V8 ICE powered car.

Plate spinner

17,649 posts

199 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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Back in the day this niche was filled perfectly by TVR in the Griff / Chim era - big V8 in a good looking but slightly rough around the edges package at an affordable price.

I often think that if TVR had concentrated on tweaking crate engines and developing the platforms further instead of creating their own engines, they could be making hay today. When the Rover V8 had to be out to rest, a deal with Ford or GM might have been the better strategy rather than piling money into the speed six.

But that ship has now sailed. Anyway, just IMHO.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Sunday 18th August 2019
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I always wanted TVR to evolve and expand -- to move beyond the expectation of shed-like build quality and the need for waivers regarding engineering for crash safety.

Maybe the most recent incarnation can still do that. They are right, imo, to be looking at a fettled crate V8 from Ford.