Fact or Fiction - The Italian Tune-Up
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
Red 4 said:
I seem to recall that I read somewhere that modern cars have "learning" ECUs.
Drive with a bit of urgency, the ECU learns your driving style and the engine may become a bit more responsive.
Could all be BS or my imagination of course. I'm sure the PH gurus will put me right if I'm wrong.
Very much the case, especially with turbo charged engines! On a turbo engine, you don't want the turbo doing work (ie creating boost pressure) that is then "wasted" across the throttle, because that reduces fuel economy. But for sporty driving, having lots of 'Pre throttle boost' is good because it gives faster throttle response. With modern electronically controlled turbo's, the ECU can choose how much pre throttle boost to run, so when you put the car in sports mode, or drive more agressively, the ecu will move to maps that maximise response at the expense of a worse fuel economy. The same is true for other control parameters such as EGR flow, cam phasing, and oil and water pump demands etc.Drive with a bit of urgency, the ECU learns your driving style and the engine may become a bit more responsive.
Could all be BS or my imagination of course. I'm sure the PH gurus will put me right if I'm wrong.
These days, even if you have selected "sport" if you drive gently the ecu will actually slowly revert to "economy" settings!
Another thing I've noticed is that all cars (same make, same model, same year) are not equal.
Some are definitely more eager than others out of the box and remain so throughout their life.
It's odd because they are exactly the same mix of parts.
Maybe some have "learning difficulties".
Used to make a point of revving my old turbodiesels occasionally in 3rd gear to stop them sooting up, given that high gearing and normal driving speeds meant mostly low revs.
Haven't really done so with my current (old) Beemer E36 though. It does get periodic long runs to Yorkshire and back 600 mile return trip at mostly 3000-3500rpm though which maybe is good enough.
Proper Italian tune up would be fun but also get highly illegal fairly quickly, and its not all that fast by modern standards....
Haven't really done so with my current (old) Beemer E36 though. It does get periodic long runs to Yorkshire and back 600 mile return trip at mostly 3000-3500rpm though which maybe is good enough.
Proper Italian tune up would be fun but also get highly illegal fairly quickly, and its not all that fast by modern standards....
Red 4 said:
Cheers for the explanation.
Another thing I've noticed is that all cars (same make, same model, same year) are not equal.
Some are definitely more eager than others out of the box and remain so throughout their life.
It's odd because they are exactly the same mix of parts.
Maybe some have "learning difficulties".
We had 3 Saab 9-3 TTDI on the fleet some years back. Two of them were constantly in the garage for Engine management light on issues. In the end Saab took them back because they couldn't fix it. The third wasn't a speck of trouble, guess which one was driven by the resident hot shoe, the problem pair driven by ditherers.Another thing I've noticed is that all cars (same make, same model, same year) are not equal.
Some are definitely more eager than others out of the box and remain so throughout their life.
It's odd because they are exactly the same mix of parts.
Maybe some have "learning difficulties".
To be fair it was also a bit of stupid design by Saab when they finally figured it out.
Certainly can attest to the benefit of taking her indoors car out every so often for a bit of a clear out. Those with carbs benefited more, multipoint fuel injection less so.
My own daily, a turbo diesel off roader, which gets driven relatively gently, combination of type of roads, dog on board not liking cornering on door handles, and me in old fart mode, but a quick solo blast definitely improves matters, engine smoother, free revving and the gearbox certainly picks a better map, so is that clearing out the pipes or just self learning by the computers. Pass.
FiF said:
Red 4 said:
Cheers for the explanation.
Another thing I've noticed is that all cars (same make, same model, same year) are not equal.
Some are definitely more eager than others out of the box and remain so throughout their life.
It's odd because they are exactly the same mix of parts.
Maybe some have "learning difficulties".
We had 3 Saab 9-3 TTDI on the fleet some years back. Two of them were constantly in the garage for Engine management light on issues. In the end Saab took them back because they couldn't fix it. The third wasn't a speck of trouble, guess which one was driven by the resident hot shoe, the problem pair driven by ditherers.Another thing I've noticed is that all cars (same make, same model, same year) are not equal.
Some are definitely more eager than others out of the box and remain so throughout their life.
It's odd because they are exactly the same mix of parts.
Maybe some have "learning difficulties".
To be fair it was also a bit of stupid design by Saab when they finally figured it out.
Certainly can attest to the benefit of taking her indoors car out every so often for a bit of a clear out. Those with carbs benefited more, multipoint fuel injection less so.
My own daily, a turbo diesel off roader, which gets driven relatively gently, combination of type of roads, dog on board not liking cornering on door handles, and me in old fart mode, but a quick solo blast definitely improves matters, engine smoother, free revving and the gearbox certainly picks a better map, so is that clearing out the pipes or just self learning by the computers. Pass.
All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Until quite recently I worked at home or at a regular client's office 4 miles away, so I'd drive my car max 10 miles a day and the average speed would be 18 mph or omething.
My old car, a BMW 330d (2001 model - no DPF) didn't really drive any better after an italian tune up, but it did sound a bit cleaner, and certainly smoked a bit less for a few days. So I'd do this once every 2-3 months, and definitely before the MOT test.
The same procedure didn't seem to make any difference to my current car, a BMW 330i (2010 model, direct injection), so I didn't keep up with it. But after 18 months of owning it, I recently got a new job that's 30 miles away, and after 2 months of driving 60 miles every day, getting to hit the rev limiter at least once, and running at 4000+ rpm (even if briefly) a few times - not actually much different from my italian tune up route, just done more often - the car does seem to be running more nicely. I'm not sure its best is any better, but it is much quicker to sound like it's warmed up, and the cold engine reluctance dissipates sooner.
I'm behind on my fuel receipt data entry, so I can't say for certain, but it feels like the fuel economy might be a bit better too.
I have no idea whether this is due to the car actually running better internally, or if it's just the ECU adjusting to a different driving style. I like it anyway.
My old car, a BMW 330d (2001 model - no DPF) didn't really drive any better after an italian tune up, but it did sound a bit cleaner, and certainly smoked a bit less for a few days. So I'd do this once every 2-3 months, and definitely before the MOT test.
The same procedure didn't seem to make any difference to my current car, a BMW 330i (2010 model, direct injection), so I didn't keep up with it. But after 18 months of owning it, I recently got a new job that's 30 miles away, and after 2 months of driving 60 miles every day, getting to hit the rev limiter at least once, and running at 4000+ rpm (even if briefly) a few times - not actually much different from my italian tune up route, just done more often - the car does seem to be running more nicely. I'm not sure its best is any better, but it is much quicker to sound like it's warmed up, and the cold engine reluctance dissipates sooner.
I'm behind on my fuel receipt data entry, so I can't say for certain, but it feels like the fuel economy might be a bit better too.
I have no idea whether this is due to the car actually running better internally, or if it's just the ECU adjusting to a different driving style. I like it anyway.
As a 7-13yr old I was mad about cars and my dad wasn't but he did the books for a local Ford garage (uncle Jack - not a real uncle but it didn't matter)
My Dad ran a succession of Fords and he drives like Miss Daisy so every so often when his fuel consumption log indicated an increase he would ask Uncle Jack to do an interim service on the car. This would involve taking the car into the workshop for 30 mins and then a short test drive after.
Now as a car mad lad I pestered Uncle Jack to show me what he did but for several interim services the request was denied but I didn't give up and eventually I got to see what an interim service was - having been sworn to total secrecy (I never did tell either).
Uncle Jack drove it into the workshop - and we had a cup of tea whilst he fiddled around with whatever resto project he was working one and the car sat in the corner untouched then when a suitable time had elapsed we got in the car and took it for a drive - this involved the car being driven in a manner I had never seen before - It was amazing the car actually could do more than 55mph in fact frequently the magic 100 mph was achieved - it would get thrashed to within an inch of it's life down a 6 mile straight - chucking out a load of crap out of the exhaust on the way down it before running clean on the way back.
It would then go back in the workshop for a quick check of fluids and to cool down before being returned to the forecourt outide the office.
I asked Uncle Jack why this interim sevice was needed and he said "your dad just doesn't drive his cars hard enough - I can't undo his driving habits of a lifetime but I can give the car a clear out which is what it needs"
Not 100% sure that this applies to modern engines but all the cars I have owned over 36 years have all got a damn good spanking at least once a month
My Dad ran a succession of Fords and he drives like Miss Daisy so every so often when his fuel consumption log indicated an increase he would ask Uncle Jack to do an interim service on the car. This would involve taking the car into the workshop for 30 mins and then a short test drive after.
Now as a car mad lad I pestered Uncle Jack to show me what he did but for several interim services the request was denied but I didn't give up and eventually I got to see what an interim service was - having been sworn to total secrecy (I never did tell either).
Uncle Jack drove it into the workshop - and we had a cup of tea whilst he fiddled around with whatever resto project he was working one and the car sat in the corner untouched then when a suitable time had elapsed we got in the car and took it for a drive - this involved the car being driven in a manner I had never seen before - It was amazing the car actually could do more than 55mph in fact frequently the magic 100 mph was achieved - it would get thrashed to within an inch of it's life down a 6 mile straight - chucking out a load of crap out of the exhaust on the way down it before running clean on the way back.
It would then go back in the workshop for a quick check of fluids and to cool down before being returned to the forecourt outide the office.
I asked Uncle Jack why this interim sevice was needed and he said "your dad just doesn't drive his cars hard enough - I can't undo his driving habits of a lifetime but I can give the car a clear out which is what it needs"
Not 100% sure that this applies to modern engines but all the cars I have owned over 36 years have all got a damn good spanking at least once a month
Red 4 said:
It's an odd one, isn't it ...
All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Volvo were rumoured to have chipped the T5s they have out as demo cars in the 90s, to add to their first impressions... Was the fast one a tester at all?All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
ShampooEfficient said:
Red 4 said:
It's an odd one, isn't it ...
All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Volvo were rumoured to have chipped the T5s they have out as demo cars in the 90s, to add to their first impressions... Was the fast one a tester at all?All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Red 4 said:
It's an odd one, isn't it ...
All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Hmmm All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Is this Red 4, I think we should be told.
Mark?
only kidding natch. 
A spirited run definitely works on cars usually stuck in the city. I take a 12 year old turbo-diesel on a monthly 65 mile round hilly pennine trip along the M66/65/61 to give it a clear out. Once warmed up the first serious acceleration leaves some kind of James Bond smoke screen, but after the drive it runs smooth and cleanly. Saves me having to remove and clear out the EGR valve too. A brief note to the self-appointed diesel police before they arrive, no it wasn't bought as a town car but circumstances changed, and no, it would not have been cheaper over the life of the vehicle to have bought the petrol.
The Mrs has a 2.0d Mini Cooper SD and she chugs to and from work in it, it definitely appreciates a bit of a blast now and then.
A few years ago an engineer pal who works in the car industry suggested doing some long 3rd gear pulls to clear out a suspected ropey injector on my 1.8t Audi A3. It worked, something to do with the maximum amount of fuel going through the injector to clear out any crud that may have been in there.
A few years ago an engineer pal who works in the car industry suggested doing some long 3rd gear pulls to clear out a suspected ropey injector on my 1.8t Audi A3. It worked, something to do with the maximum amount of fuel going through the injector to clear out any crud that may have been in there.
FiF said:
Red 4 said:
It's an odd one, isn't it ...
All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Hmmm All of the cars I was referring to had a hard life though - yet some were quicker than others.
I remember one particular Vectra VXR which was seemingly buying its own steroids/ secretly gorging on Red Bull when nobody was looking.
That car easily exceeded its stated top speed by some margin ( calibrated speedo and confirmed on GPS ) even with a light bar.
I didn't understand it - shouldn't it "rev out" or something ?
Another identical car couldn't keep up with it.
All very odd.
Is this Red 4, I think we should be told.Mark?
only kidding natch. Mark Milton only managed 159 MPH.
So either;
A) He wasn't trying hard enough.
B) He was using one of the slower Vectras.
Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 25th August 11:34
I find with the direct injection petrol engines car I have owned that periods of just shorter journeys and gentle driving result in diesel-like soot clouds from the exhaust when you do get the chance to put your foot down, and the car feels livelier afterwards.
I know someone who drives very carefully - low revs, tries to be super economical but the car always has engine issues - emissions, engine management light on etc.
I know someone who drives very carefully - low revs, tries to be super economical but the car always has engine issues - emissions, engine management light on etc.
According to one of my team’s race engineers who worked in a shop that had a dyno, that had the occasional old dear’s car (usually a mechanic’s mum) with low miles but was running rough and throwing fault codes.
They’d throw it on the dyno and hold them at max rpm and load for about 30 seconds and watch the load on the dyno creep up as it fired out puffs of crap as all of the carbon and rubbish flaked off and was burnt off.
They all ran perfectly afterwards, although I can’t help but wonder if they blew any up!
Mrs Wookie’s Cayenne definitely suffers from her pootling around trying to get 35mpg out of it, constantly throwing EMLs with her driving. I’ve NEVER had one and since I told her to give it a shoeing at least once a day it’s stopped happening!
It’s done about 130,000 miles now so it’s probably just a sticky EGR valve or something that needs exercising to keep moving but the principle stands!
They’d throw it on the dyno and hold them at max rpm and load for about 30 seconds and watch the load on the dyno creep up as it fired out puffs of crap as all of the carbon and rubbish flaked off and was burnt off.
They all ran perfectly afterwards, although I can’t help but wonder if they blew any up!
Mrs Wookie’s Cayenne definitely suffers from her pootling around trying to get 35mpg out of it, constantly throwing EMLs with her driving. I’ve NEVER had one and since I told her to give it a shoeing at least once a day it’s stopped happening!
It’s done about 130,000 miles now so it’s probably just a sticky EGR valve or something that needs exercising to keep moving but the principle stands!
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