RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019

RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019

Author
Discussion

NomduJour

14,493 posts

204 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
A hundred pictures of various modified things trying to drive over giant boulders you could just have driven around coming in 3... 2... 1...

unsprung

3,444 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
At the Wrangler? Very much so, it’s an embarrassing car.
On the contrary: It has off road capabilities that are generally unmatched by any other affordable car. It's the de facto leader of the world's most popular four-wheeled off-roading experiences.

What's embarrassing, or should be for you, is a reductive way of viewing the world in which widespread ownership experiences are swept aside for the comforting Schadenfreude of thinking that Wrangler is just a wee bit of Channel 4.


NomduJour

14,493 posts

204 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
There’s more to driving off-road than rock crawling - that is a narrow world view.

unsprung

3,444 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
There’s more to driving off-road than rock crawling - that is a narrow world view.
Your views here on Wrangler vis a vis Defender are the ne plus ulra of narrow thinking. They're childish.

For utter years upon years I was lectured to by Britons on how Defender was and remains the better vehicle off road and that Wrangler a paper tiger. They were wrong then. And you're wrong now.


Max_Torque

13,980 posts

162 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Sporky said:
A serious question - sorry - are live axles really all that off-road?.
Serious answer: NO


What really matters is the vehicles "cross axle rate" or in effect, how much force it takes to make the suspension roll (where roll is defined as one wheel going down, and the wheel on the other side going up, wrt the body.

No modern 4x4 that is in any way "road based" will these days have a low enough roll rate to make any real difference between how the wheels are held onto the body. JLR use air springs and active anti roll bars on it's top models to try to be the best of both worlds, ie have a high roll rate on the road (to stop the vehicle, er rolling around) and to have a low one off road, where you want to accommodate maximum wheel articulation (be that single wheel bump / droop or cross axle articulation.

In the same way as "ladder chassis" has been miss-appropriated to mean "strong off road" (hint, ladder chassis are nothing to do with beam axles or off road capability) beam axles have become a stupid singular point of reference to people who don't actually understand the kinematics or dynamics of vehicles

NomduJour

14,493 posts

204 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
unsprung said:
For utter years upon years I was lectured to by Britons on how Defender was and remains the better vehicle off road and that Wrangler a paper tiger. They were wrong then. And you're wrong now.
The Defender was an anachronism; the Wrangler still is.

oldtimer2

667 posts

78 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
oldtimer2 said:
Dropped into my local dealer this morning to settle my spec. Asked him how sales were going on Day 2. He said that they had so far taken 28 deposits and confirmed 16 production specs for customers. Several of these were from existing Defender owners.
But how many were trading in or replacing their old Defender with the new one, vs buying as an addition too?
I have no idea. Why on earth should I ask that question? Besides which it is none of my business - or yours. And what is its relevance to sales of the new Defender? None. What matters is whether or not this new product sells. They could own just one vehicle or multiple vehicles. Each decision will be specific to the needs, wants, preferences and circumstances of that specific owner at this specific time.

unsprung

3,444 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
NomduJour said:
The Defender was an anachronism; the Wrangler still is.
On the contrary: Wrangler fulfils all emissions and safety requirements where sold.

It's probably the world's most popular four-wheeled off-roader -- a massive community with DIY and aftermarket that, from your posts, you're astonishingly unfamiliar with.

Queer as Folk joke? You're looking through a macaroni.


camel_landy

2,679 posts

128 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
unsprung said:
camel_landy said:
Looking at the lineup and the bodystyles, I suspect the Jeep Wrangler, Rubicon & Gladiator are firmly in LandRover's sights. LandRover will make a mint, even if they can tap just a small percentage of the US market.
The Jeep Wrangler Unlimited offers a range that begins at less than the equivalent of £29,000 on the road (tax and all). Throw an enormous sum of £5,000 at it -- for upgrades and options -- and you still have a rather affordable vehicle.

Defender has loads of clever electrics, but no live axles, no removable doors, and no massive DIY aftermarket. It comes from an OEM with a reputation for munching on the maintenance budget at dealership rates.

Sure, some Wrangler owners will join the expanding pool of New Defender owners. But is Defender truly targeting the Wrangler? Or hoping to secure a major portion of its volume from Wrangler conquests?
With the volume of Wrangles sold in the US, I'll go back to what I said: Even if they can tap just a small percentage...

The removable doors are a nice touch and while I was over in the US in July, it was interesting to see just how many Wranglers are on the streets there. Frankly, I was surprised to see that out of all those Wranglers, I only saw ONE which had removed its doors!! (FWIW - I covered a mix of rural, city and beach locations while there.)

There is an enormous DIY aftermarket for the various flavours of LandRovers and I don't see this car being any different. However, you probably haven't seen much of it state-side, as there aren't that many vehicles to cater for. As for the live axles, typically that's only relevant for the big-lift, pick-up truck brigade but given what the Icelandic's do with their cars, it'll be interesting to see what they make of it.

unsprung said:
NomduJour said:
I’d be more worried about the structural weaknesses, I think
I think I'll go with the engineers of a major OEM, as well as the EU and UK authorities who've certified this vehicle, over your opinion.
Yeah, it was certified as 1*...

I actually really like the Jeep, my BiL has one of the new Rubicons and it's a lot of fun... However, if you think Land Rover have quality issues... eek

M

Sporky

308 posts

9 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Serious answer: NO

(snip)
Ta - that all makes sense.

unsprung

3,444 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
However, if you think Land Rover have quality issues... eek
I do wish that Land Rover would do better on quality. Jeep does better (kindly see linked pages below).

As noted earlier... Defender must be a volte face to the current experience and to the idea that people in Solihull don't care.


Gummi

56 posts

44 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Not sure if this has been posted but watch this to see why it will hopefully be a huge success in the USA. Also Doug's thoughts on the design, technology are exactly on the button. As an owner of a '95 V8 Defender I think he's qualified to comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbiHyKfw1IM&fb...

I for what its worth I will be getting a 300PS petrol base 90 with steel wheels, active locking rear diff in Pangea green with white roof and wheels when I can.

I work at JLR. I and the rest of the company are incredibly excited about this car. We've all been waiting so long, worked so hard to launch it and for it to finally be out in the open is amazing. Times are hard at the moment, as reported extensively in the press, so it is awesome to have something to be excited about.


Edited by Gummi on Wednesday 11th September 20:05

camel_landy

2,679 posts

128 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Sporky said:
A serious question - sorry - are live axles really all that off-road?.
Serious answer: NO


What really matters is the vehicles "cross axle rate" or in effect, how much force it takes to make the suspension roll (where roll is defined as one wheel going down, and the wheel on the other side going up, wrt the body.

No modern 4x4 that is in any way "road based" will these days have a low enough roll rate to make any real difference between how the wheels are held onto the body. JLR use air springs and active anti roll bars on it's top models to try to be the best of both worlds, ie have a high roll rate on the road (to stop the vehicle, er rolling around) and to have a low one off road, where you want to accommodate maximum wheel articulation (be that single wheel bump / droop or cross axle articulation.

In the same way as "ladder chassis" has been miss-appropriated to mean "strong off road" (hint, ladder chassis are nothing to do with beam axles or off road capability) beam axles have become a stupid singular point of reference to people who don't actually understand the kinematics or dynamics of vehicles
^^^ This...

M

camel_landy

2,679 posts

128 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
unsprung said:
camel_landy said:
However, if you think Land Rover have quality issues... eek
I do wish that Land Rover would do better on quality. Jeep does better (kindly see linked pages below).

As noted earlier... Defender must be a volte face to the current experience and to the idea that people in Solihull don't care.
Thanks for the links but I'm going on personal experiences.

M

unsprung

3,444 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
unsprung said:
camel_landy said:
However, if you think Land Rover have quality issues... eek
I do wish that Land Rover would do better on quality. Jeep does better (kindly see linked pages below).

As noted earlier... Defender must be a volte face to the current experience and to the idea that people in Solihull don't care.
Thanks for the links but I'm going on personal experiences.

M
That's perfectly fine.

If we want to say, "Quantitative data from a quality survey that's been run for decades in a very large and competitive market is not going to change my personal opinion," it's useful to be transparent about this. I seldom see this on PH, and I welcome it.


Tempest_5

482 posts

142 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Hmmm. Just seen this. It's not too bad looking. I'm sure the under gubbins are good off road. That appears to the case according to the reviews I have read so that leaves me with the aesthetics of it. My reaction as a middle aged, bearded Engineer who has a series 3 Land Rover.

First off, It's alright. I like the way they have tried to keep the two big round front headlights, though you can only really see them when they are on. The front could do with being a bit squarer but I appreciate that they have fuel economy and pedestrian safety to worry about.

The front looks too generic Land Rover. I understand that it's all about "common visual clues" across the brand or what ever they call it, but one thing I thought they could retain was that distinctive Defender look that means you recognise what it is fairly instantly.

The 90 looks a bit too like a new Mini from certain angles, however being an engineer myself having to work with requirements I'm given, I appreciate how LR went about this.

In conclusion, not a bad effort, I just would have liked it to have been a bit more distinctive.

camel_landy

2,679 posts

128 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
unsprung said:
If we want to say, "Quantitative data from a quality survey that's been run for decades in a very large and competitive market is not going to change my personal opinion," it's useful to be transparent about this. I seldom see this on PH, and I welcome it.
laugh

M

InitialDave

5,429 posts

64 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Serious answer: NO
There is a further point to include - as the differential is generally the lowest point of a live axle vehicle, there's the nominal advantage that compressing the suspension doesn't change the ground clearance... but independent suspension allows you to have more in the first place, so it's doesn't really matter.

Similar with the idea that a live axle has the benefit of lifting one wheel as it climbs an obstruction causes the diff to rise too - well, yes, it does, but if an equivalent independent design already had that clearance, again, does it really matter?

AngryPartsBloke

843 posts

96 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Ahh, the old "the more verbose my comment the more credible it must be"

InitialDave

5,429 posts

64 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
AngryPartsBloke said:
Ahh, the old "the more verbose my comment the more credible it must be"
Which part of my comment do you take issue with?