RE: Land Rover Defender | Frankfurt 2019

[David Grounds]

JLR have just announced what should be a new Discovery.
A Land Rover (Defender) ought to be built like a Commercial Vehicle adaptable to any job required of it. Mod's go anywhere do anything, farmer's utilities, construction sites etc. etc.
They will sell, but JLR have ditched a market base.

[Equilibrium25]

loudlashadjuster said:

I think JLR intend finding out!

Seven models, nine if you include the Jag SUVs, across, and I’m being generous here, three distinct size segments.

Even the Germans are rarely that ‘enthusiastic’ about chasing niches.

X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7 = 7 [then add Mini Countryman]

GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupe, GLE, GLE Coupe, GLS, G-Wagon = 8

Q2, Q3, Q3 Sportback, Q5, Q7, Q8 = 6, then add Touareg, Tiguan, and some little one that I forget

The Germans are not really doing anything different to JLR in terms of niches.

[NomduJour]

David Grounds said:

They will sell, but JLR have ditched a market base.

Everyone would have loved to see a new Defender compete globally in that market - problem is, they sold something like 4,000 a year to commercial buyers; Toyota shift 500,000+ Hilux a year, and probably need to with the margins on a cheapo pickup. Just not going to happen.

[Shakermaker]

Equilibrium25 said:

loudlashadjuster said:

I think JLR intend finding out!

Seven models, nine if you include the Jag SUVs, across, and I’m being generous here, three distinct size segments.

Even the Germans are rarely that ‘enthusiastic’ about chasing niches.

X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7 = 7 [then add Mini Countryman]

GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupe, GLE, GLE Coupe, GLS, G-Wagon = 8

Q2, Q3, Q3 Sportback, Q5, Q7, Q8 = 6, then add Touareg, Tiguan, and some little one that I forget

The Germans are not really doing anything different to JLR in terms of niches.

Touraeg, Tiguan, T-Roc, T-Cross from VW

The Germans are obsessed with the niche chasing, clearly. Several jokes here on PH and elsehwere about Mercedes filling every niche and then inventing a new one to have another go at filling that as well. And you forgot the Unimog

[ultramarine91]

There is a van version coming too!

Great styling on the 90, also a fan of the steel wheels.

Shame it's in another pricing stratosphere from the last Defender .

Hope it's a success

[Clivey]

Zed Ed said:

Wrangler market is teeny though

Again, UK-centric thinking. Jeep sold almost a quarter of a million Wranglers in the USA last year alone. As others have said, even a small slice of that would be very nice from Land Rover's perspective...now imagine if they released a pickup version later on. - Surely they'd be mad not to?

[fortfive]

It's growing on me. I don't like the prices, headlights or the square thingy in the rear window, otherwise looks good. Rather have one than some of the other school run look-alikes. I imagine it will drain all the sales from Discovery(sport or the big hideous one) and quite a few Evoque buyers too.
Come on JLR put a 6 year warranty on all your products too, that is the biggest thing stopping me buying one.

[Davyf]

I think this is an eyesore, it is no longer a farmers vehicle that they were originally designed for. I was a long time Land Rover technician, but have never been a fan of ''soft roaders'' which mostly are driven by people who do not need them for anything other than transporting children and doing a bit of shopping.... rant over.....

[GT03ROB]

ultramarine91 said:

There is a van version coming too!

Great styling on the 90, also a fan of the steel wheels.

Shame it's in another pricing stratosphere from the last Defender .

Hope it's a success

Always liked the twincab pickup... no sign of one of them then?

[unrepentant]

Clivey said:

Zed Ed said:

Wrangler market is teeny though

Again, UK-centric thinking. Jeep sold almost a quarter of a million Wranglers in the USA last year alone. As others have said, even a small slice of that would be very nice from Land Rover's perspective...now imagine if they released a pickup version later on. - Surely they'd be mad not to?

The US has high tariffs on pick ups to protect domestic manufacturers. It's why MB don't sell theirs here.

[Shakermaker]

Clivey said:

Zed Ed said:

Wrangler market is teeny though

Again, UK-centric thinking. Jeep sold almost a quarter of a million Wranglers in the USA last year alone. As others have said, even a small slice of that would be very nice from Land Rover's perspective...now imagine if they released a pickup version later on. - Surely they'd be mad not to?

And as we've highlighted, the reciprocal is true - there's a jeep garage in town and there are Wranglers with an asking price of £48,000! Which I guess in the USA would be that $30,000 car everyone is talking about.

[Ares]

David Grounds said:

.
They will sell, but JLR have ditched a market base.

How may years ago (decades ago?) was that market base JLR's? Or even LR's?

[300bhp/ton]

deadtom said:

frozen-in-wiltshire said:

40k for the asthmatic one - no use
60k for the sensibly powered diesel - the one you need

A few people have mentioned this, but the lowest power option is 200 bhp, which is still more than most of the pickups that people keep referencing, no? My BiL uses a '17 L200 for work and that is around 180 bhp if memory serves.

And it isn't even that long since the world was happy with 120 ~ 130 bhp from a 2.5 ~ 3 litre for a mid sized workhorse 4x4 which weighs about the same as the new defender 90

200 bhp from a 2 litre diesel is not asthmatic

also, probably worth mentioning that the 200 and 240 bhp versions of the engine make the exact same torque, but the 240 makes it until a bit higher up the rev range

doesn't the new Defender weigh 2.2 tonnes though. 180hp in a vehicle weighing less may well go just as well.

That said, the petrol looks to be the way to go.

[DonkeyApple]

David Grounds said:

JLR have just announced what should be a new Discovery.
A Land Rover (Defender) ought to be built like a Commercial Vehicle adaptable to any job required of it. Mod's go anywhere do anything, farmer's utilities, construction sites etc. etc.
They will sell, but JLR have ditched a market base.

On Planet 1901 absolutely. But on planet Earth we are much more advanced and have zero commercial need for these archane attributes you speak of.

Once you guys on Planet 1901 see a transit van or a pick-up you are going to st your pants the awesomeness, let alone when you guys get tarmac and start moving to a more advanced stage of society.

[C70R]

The Wookie said:

C70R said:

Ah... we're into multi-quote and 'debating the definition of words' territory.

This is a classic 300 thread. One for the ages.

Defenders, British Leyland engineering, modern vehicles, off-roading, it's one negative comment about american cars short of a full house of 300bhp triggers

At least he's consistent. That's the important thing.

[300bhp/ton]

w1bbles said:

This isn’t exactly high brow and I haven’t read the whole thread, but I like it.

I’ve owned 4 Defenders...

V8 90
Chipped Td5 90
V8 90 (again)
Chipped Td5 110

And 3 Discos

Disco 3 V8
Disco 3 log burner
Disco 4 3.0 log burner

I would love something that mates the 2 models, which the new one appears to do. It’s just a pity I won’t be interested in buying one until the second hand price of the £75,000 one I specced today has dropped to £20k!

Some nice vehicles there.

Just curoius and not knocking your intent or anything. But exactly how does this new model mate a traditional Defender and D3/4? Apart from the name?

This new vehicle looks highly impressive. But is a million miles away from the old one, and doesn't really seem to offer anything that a D4 doesn't.

[300bhp/ton]

Fermit and Sexy Sarah said:

In fairness, I was worried that we really could have received this, a RRS/RR/Evoque/Disco IE same nose on everything. Very glad that they weren't tempted to.

But we have pretty much.

[NomduJour]

300bhp/ton said:

doesn't the new Defender weigh 2.2 tonnes though

Twin cabs are there or thereabouts (but some of those are also more powerful than the two current Defender diesels).

[300bhp/ton]

Max_Torque said:

Sporky said:

A serious question - sorry - are live axles really all that off-road?.

Serious answer: NO


What really matters is the vehicles "cross axle rate" or in effect, how much force it takes to make the suspension roll (where roll is defined as one wheel going down, and the wheel on the other side going up, wrt the body.

No modern 4x4 that is in any way "road based" will these days have a low enough roll rate to make any real difference between how the wheels are held onto the body. JLR use air springs and active anti roll bars on it's top models to try to be the best of both worlds, ie have a high roll rate on the road (to stop the vehicle, er rolling around) and to have a low one off road, where you want to accommodate maximum wheel articulation (be that single wheel bump / droop or cross axle articulation.

In the same way as "ladder chassis" has been miss-appropriated to mean "strong off road" (hint, ladder chassis are nothing to do with beam axles or off road capability) beam axles have become a stupid singular point of reference to people who don't actually understand the kinematics or dynamics of vehicles

Max, how will a coil 90 compare to an air one off road?

[300bhp/ton]

NomduJour said:

At the Wrangler? Very much so, it’s an embarrassing car. Cheaply engineered, cheaply built.

Why are you like this? Were you bullied or something