RE: Land Rover Defender walkaround | Frankfurt 2019
Discussion
It's shocking how expensive things have got. The old Defender was flipping expensive in 2015 when they started at about 22 grand or 25 grand for a station wagon. I'm struggling to see what can possibly make this new version worth 45 grand, although I am aware that the only thing it shares with the old model is the name.
It does seem like a betrayal of the old market for utility Land Rovers which does still exist by the way, pickups aren't as useful for some jobs as a 110 SW.
It does seem like a betrayal of the old market for utility Land Rovers which does still exist by the way, pickups aren't as useful for some jobs as a 110 SW.
NomduJour said:
Lester H said:
Functional 2 door Mitsubishi 4x4 pick up is available new at £16k. No, they’re not the same, but......
Just looked - cheapest is £21,515, but they’re very basic.Lester H said:
NomduJour said:
Lester H said:
Functional 2 door Mitsubishi 4x4 pick up is available new at £16k. No, they’re not the same, but......
Just looked - cheapest is £21,515, but they’re very basic.
warch said:
It's shocking how expensive things have got. The old Defender was flipping expensive in 2015 when they started at about 22 grand or 25 grand for a station wagon. I'm struggling to see what can possibly make this new version worth 45 grand, although I am aware that the only thing it shares with the old model is the name.
I think it will sell and for this money.A good friend paid £50k for a Landmark Discovery 4 and I suspect I'll be seeing him replace it with a new 110. Regardless of the name, the spec and market it is being aimed at is an established one.
300bhp/ton said:
I think it will sell and for this money.
A good friend paid £50k for a Landmark Discovery 4 and I suspect I'll be seeing him replace it with a new 110. Regardless of the name, the spec and market it is being aimed at is an established one.
Yes I don't doubt that it'll sell, but there is now a huge gulf in price between these and the utility market i.e. 4x4 pickups which cost between £22-35 grand. Basically I doubt I'll be able to hire a Landie for site work from SHB any more when the last of old shape ones get withdrawn*.A good friend paid £50k for a Landmark Discovery 4 and I suspect I'll be seeing him replace it with a new 110. Regardless of the name, the spec and market it is being aimed at is an established one.
- Yes I'm well aware SHB do Range Rovers but they're too dear for me to hire.
oop north said:
Farm vets round here have regular Octavia estates not scouts
I was basing it on a sample size of 2, one a friend of my wife who is a vet and has an Octavia Scout, the other a friend of my dad who is a vet and has a Ranger with a Truckman hard top. But then I'm "darn sarf" rather than "oop north" 
Despite LR naming this Defender, it clearly isn't pitched as an actual replacement for the traditional Defender. That much is obvious by it's spec, price and basic design.
JLR moved the Discovery to a different segment with the D5 recently, which left a hole in their line-up. A big hole, as the D3 and D4 were arguably the backbone of the modern Land Rover range and good sellers. This new model has clearly been purpose designed to fulfill the role of the traditional Discovery and using the Defender name will allow them additional success in milking the image and heritage of the Defender. Especially in markets such as the USA, Australia and Chelsea. I suspect for the first 2-3 years sales will be through the roof before tailing off to more normal levels, solely based on this being badged as "Defender".
The trendy set want to be seen as being rugged and stylish. Even if the most it'll do is bump up a curb. A bit like having a £2000 diving watch when that person is afraid of going in the water. And in London, LA, Los Vegas and lots of other places this will go down very well.
The sad thing is, there is a huge following of the traditional Land Rover still. And those hoping for a genuine replacement are likely disappointed. Even more sadly, it seems many on PistonHeads cannot comprehend this and instead throw insults at anyone who dares to say so. It's almost laughable how some of the people are having a paddy because a poster says they don't think it's a real Defender.
For me, I actually like the vehicle as a Discovery replacement. And can well see a used one in my collection at some point (I won't be able to afford a new one unless I win the Lotto). But ultimately I am personally disappointed, as I was hoping for a true replacement for the Defender, so that in a couple of years I'd be able to buy one of those.
BTW - the friend I mentioned with the Landmark Disco 4. He also has a Td5 Defender. I'm willing to bet my house that when they upgrade to a new Defender, it'll be the Disco 4 that goes, not the Td5.
JLR moved the Discovery to a different segment with the D5 recently, which left a hole in their line-up. A big hole, as the D3 and D4 were arguably the backbone of the modern Land Rover range and good sellers. This new model has clearly been purpose designed to fulfill the role of the traditional Discovery and using the Defender name will allow them additional success in milking the image and heritage of the Defender. Especially in markets such as the USA, Australia and Chelsea. I suspect for the first 2-3 years sales will be through the roof before tailing off to more normal levels, solely based on this being badged as "Defender".
The trendy set want to be seen as being rugged and stylish. Even if the most it'll do is bump up a curb. A bit like having a £2000 diving watch when that person is afraid of going in the water. And in London, LA, Los Vegas and lots of other places this will go down very well.
The sad thing is, there is a huge following of the traditional Land Rover still. And those hoping for a genuine replacement are likely disappointed. Even more sadly, it seems many on PistonHeads cannot comprehend this and instead throw insults at anyone who dares to say so. It's almost laughable how some of the people are having a paddy because a poster says they don't think it's a real Defender.
For me, I actually like the vehicle as a Discovery replacement. And can well see a used one in my collection at some point (I won't be able to afford a new one unless I win the Lotto). But ultimately I am personally disappointed, as I was hoping for a true replacement for the Defender, so that in a couple of years I'd be able to buy one of those.
BTW - the friend I mentioned with the Landmark Disco 4. He also has a Td5 Defender. I'm willing to bet my house that when they upgrade to a new Defender, it'll be the Disco 4 that goes, not the Td5.
300bhp/ton said:
The sad thing is, there is a huge following of the traditional Land Rover still. And those hoping for a genuine replacement are likely disappointed
To make a cheap low-margin utility vehicle work, you need to sell lots and lots of them - unfortunately, not every commercial buyer signs on the dotted line because they have warm feelings about what the brand used to make. 300bhp/ton said:
For me, I ... can well see a used one in my collection at some point (I won't be able to afford a new one unless I win the Lotto). But ultimately I am personally disappointed, as I was hoping for a true replacement for the Defender, so that in a couple of years I'd be able to buy one of those.
Can you spot the particular reason why Land Rover’s design, engineering and marketing departments might not necessarily be too interested by your concerns?Never been a fan of the old Defender, one roof experience of being in one proved every terrible expectation I had of it, and I'd have to say I'm not a massive fan of this new 110, but the 90 in that green with steel wheels looks bloody brilliant. And it seems like some genuinely clever features in it as well.
If I had 45k to spend I'd be considering one of these now.
If I had 45k to spend I'd be considering one of these now.
The US variations are good value - and you can spec the V6 400 in the lower specs too, for rather less than the UK. But we can’t have the diesels thank god. Like the six seat option (I have a time warp multipla in my UK garage!) and may go for one.
Volvo’s are looking pretty good too these days - it seems odd to compare them to a LR Defender but there’s where we’ve ended up.
Volvo’s are looking pretty good too these days - it seems odd to compare them to a LR Defender but there’s where we’ve ended up.
NomduJour said:
Can you spot the particular reason why Land Rover’s design, engineering and marketing departments might not necessarily be too interested by your concerns?
Why should I or you care. This is a car forum not affiliated with Land Rover. Surely you are not trying to suggest we cannot discuss vehicles on here unless they agree with your perceived direction of the parent manufacturer?I really don't get why you keep wanting to throw your toys out of the pram just because I'd have liked something different to you.
300bhp/ton said:
Despite LR naming this Defender, it clearly isn't pitched as an actual replacement for the traditional Defender.
For me, I actually like the vehicle...
Agreed fullyFor me, I actually like the vehicle...
300bhp/ton said:
The sad thing is, there is a huge following of the traditional Land Rover still. And those hoping for a genuine replacement are likely disappointed. Even more sadly, it seems many on PistonHeads cannot comprehend this and instead throw insults at anyone who dares to say so. It's almost laughable how some of the people are having a paddy because a poster says they don't think it's a real Defender.
The same people who probably have no familiarity with the old Defender and its capabilities, and who also can not even comprehend how anyone could think that independent suspension is not an improvement on live axles in this role.300bhp/ton said:
But ultimately I am personally disappointed, as I was hoping for a true replacement for the Defender, so that in a couple of years I'd be able to buy one of those.
I'm not, because that was never going to happen. But "true" "Defenders" are still available new, and they are way better than any 90 or 110 of old. They are called LandCruisers and were always actually better 90% of the time.300bhp/ton said:
The sad thing is, there is a huge following of the traditional Land Rover .
Ok, prove it. It's easy to say, so prove it to us. Prove you are right, and we are wrong. show us actual facts that show this "huge" market?Let me present the case for the opposition:
Land Rover Defender European sales by year
2018 1
2017 7
2016 182
2015 1.237
2014 1.147
2013 810
2012 971
2011 1.443
2010 4.117
2009 5.604
2008 8.089
2007 8.137
2006 8.663
2005 8.584
2004 9.006
2003 8.276
2002 7.446
2001 5.326
2000 7.350
1999 6.596
1998 5.428
1997 4.850
Clearly, based on actual facts, there is no "huge market" for a utility defender.
It's time to face facts and shut up 300;
1) There is no huge market for a purely utilitarian vehicle
2) if there was, JLR would make one
You can have an opinion, everyone can, but actual facts shows yours to be wrong. That's fine, everyone is allowed to be wrong. The difference is that most people when clearly shown the erroneous nature of their opinion should be smart enough to change that opinion......
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff