RE: 'Plaid' level Model S revealed with lap record
Discussion
Gull Slayer said:
For me to go EV I would like a quoted 600 miles range or more. Then if its freezing cold and raining I would still have enough range with wipers, heaters and lights etc. on, with a diversion thrown in for good measure, and still not tickle my battery anxiety. Long while to wait I suspect!
What car do you drive?MikeGoodwin said:
I'd probably consider ev if they were cheap enough but only for a s
t car, something to get to work in or to the shops but I'd have to have a toy to go with it. Lotus or caterfield for example just to offset the utter boredom of an ev. But I'm not someone with the money to afford a Tesla
Interesting comment above about rivalry between Porsche and Tesla as well.
You haven't actually had a go in a Tesla, have you? The 'utter boredom' comment is a big giveaway.t car, something to get to work in or to the shops but I'd have to have a toy to go with it. Lotus or caterfield for example just to offset the utter boredom of an ev. But I'm not someone with the money to afford a TeslaInteresting comment above about rivalry between Porsche and Tesla as well.
Teslas are nuts. It's all mild mannered and silent, even when ripping your face off. This is not something that gets old. I find mine far less boring than my old 220bhp S1 Lotus Elise.
^this
The Model S is a big heavy car, but its far from boring.
I’m always interested to see how polarising EV’s can be.
I’ve had an S1 135 Elise, V8 Esprit, 997C2S and a P85+ and they’re all different in character but the P85+ was far from boring. Though admittedly the power restriction when it got a little to hot was annoying.
However, we need to remember the original Model S was in 2012, way ahead of any other manufacturer. And certainly the Model 3 has been engineered to not have the same power restriction issues, which looks like have no been engineered into the forthcoming iteration of the S... which is why i have one on order!
And yes you do have to get used to charging it, but with the pace of change of charging technology as well as battery storage it won’t be long before this isn’t an issue either.
But it doesn’t mean i also won’t want a fun, manual gearbox’d petrol car sitting next to it on the drive.
The Model S is a big heavy car, but its far from boring.
I’m always interested to see how polarising EV’s can be.
I’ve had an S1 135 Elise, V8 Esprit, 997C2S and a P85+ and they’re all different in character but the P85+ was far from boring. Though admittedly the power restriction when it got a little to hot was annoying.
However, we need to remember the original Model S was in 2012, way ahead of any other manufacturer. And certainly the Model 3 has been engineered to not have the same power restriction issues, which looks like have no been engineered into the forthcoming iteration of the S... which is why i have one on order!
And yes you do have to get used to charging it, but with the pace of change of charging technology as well as battery storage it won’t be long before this isn’t an issue either.
But it doesn’t mean i also won’t want a fun, manual gearbox’d petrol car sitting next to it on the drive.
skint_driver said:
MikeGoodwin said:
I'd probably consider ev if they were cheap enough but only for a st car, something to get to work in or to the shops but I'd have to have a toy to go with it. Lotus or caterfield for example just to offset the utter boredom of an ev. But I'm not someone with the money to afford a Tesla
Interesting comment above about rivalry between Porsche and Tesla as well.
You haven't actually had a go in a Tesla, have you? The 'utter boredom' comment is a big giveaway.t car, something to get to work in or to the shops but I'd have to have a toy to go with it. Lotus or caterfield for example just to offset the utter boredom of an ev. But I'm not someone with the money to afford a TeslaInteresting comment above about rivalry between Porsche and Tesla as well.
Teslas are nuts. It's all mild mannered and silent, even when ripping your face off. This is not something that gets old. I find mine far less boring than my old 220bhp S1 Lotus Elise.
The performance is useful/neat party piece but they are a pretty pleasant way to travel.
I do wonder how many have decided they are anti without having a go in a decent EV, I find a lot of classic enthusiasts pretty bad for that "Dont like, dont want, give me a 1963 Ford Consult any day, a Proper car...."
"Have you been in an EV" ?
"No, dont want to"
60 odd year old blokes sounding like a toddler.
I think a lot think its an either/or, you have to choose, cant see themselves getting on so may as well say how rubbish they are.
Remember my father in law saying how he would never allow an internet connection in his house, work of the devil, should be banned etc etc, five years later he was waxing lyrical about how to get a faster connection...
See also socialist worker party members who are now bank managers, I find its best to keep an open mind.
I keep saying I dont want an EV, am happy with IC engined cars for now but not ruling it out, as a day to day way of getting round, would be way better than the 19 mpg I get from my M135i
RacerMike said:
talksthetorque said:
RacerMike said:
talksthetorque said:
RacerMike said:
modeller said:
Rosberg has offered his services to Tesla for the Ring laps
There’s probably a hundred drivers more suitable to do the lap than him. I’m not sure he’s done anything other than a few laps has he? There’d be more credibility in it if it was someone like Uwe Alzen...Uwe Who?
Do a YouTube search for Uwe Alzen onboard.
According to AMUS
"Thomas Mutsch, VLN driver and proven Nordschleife expert who already sat behind the wheel during the testing of the SCG 003 project of the Scuderia Cameron Glickenhaus"
has been testing it so far, so that is a good choice.
The article is here
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/te...
This made me laugh, translated by google
"But back to the Eifel. Together with the Tesla a container from America arrived at the ring. Its content: a large diesel engine. This generates the power to charge the Model S. Since it is noisy day and night, it has already attracted the annoyance of the residents"
So they are charging the Tesla with a diesel generator
No matter what driver they get, they only have two small slots, so everything has to run smoothly and of course the weather has to be good. I can imagine September is quite rainy for the Nurburgring.
Edited by Gandahar on Friday 13th September 09:48
768 said:
Centurion07 said:
Gull Slayer said:
For me to go EV I would like a quoted 600 miles range or more. Then if its freezing cold and raining I would still have enough range with wipers, heaters and lights etc. on, with a diversion thrown in for good measure, and still not tickle my battery anxiety. Long while to wait I suspect!
You keep 600 mile's-worth of fuel in your car ALL THE TIME? No, me neither. Charging points are not THAT far apart that a range of 250-300 miles is really an issue.
768 said:
You might need to see a doctor. 
The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgFDo6G-EO8The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
Austin : " My middle name is Tesla, Austin Tesla Powers !"
I replaced the Shaguar with something that is my bag.
Edited by Gandahar on Friday 13th September 11:02
768 said:
You might need to see a doctor.
The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
That is, of course, true...however, on long journeys (250/300 mile+), I don't think I have ever stopped and only pee'd. We only do journeys of that length once or twice a quarter, we've never stopped for less than 20-30mins by the time we've used the toilet, let the dog use the toilet, got a coffee etc. 20-30 mins. The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
20-30mins on a supercharger would give over 50% charge.
130R said:
janesmith1950 said:
Lewis Hamilton beating F1 World Champion Rosberg not good enough to learn the 'ring and set a representative time? Really?
Yes apparently they should get someone who isn't good enough to race in F1 instead ..Put someone like Hamilton, Verstappen or Rosberg against any of the top drivers in WEC, Blancpain GT, VLN or Indycar in something like an GT car and I have absolutely no doubt they’d be right up there, winning races and getting fastest laps. But they absolutely wouldn’t be significantly faster than the guys already winning. Mainly because many of them were compatriots of the F1 guys in junior series and were equally winning as many races. Many of them beat the guys in F1 pretty resoundingly, but didn’t get the chance to get to F1 due to budget, or took a different path.
So back to The ‘Ring. Absolutely Hamilton or Rosberg could steer a car around there quickly. But if they’ve never driven the circuit properly, like any other circuit, it’s going to take them some laps to learn. It takes about 15-20 laps to learn a circuit. I would say it took me probably 25-50 to feel confident at the Ring and go for a proper time, but given the restrictions they will have next week in Industry Pool, it would make far more sense to chose someone with lots of experience. You’d get someone who knew how to set a fast lap there immediately, someone who could feedback on setup and performance with lots of experience or what makes a car fast around there, and you’d make the most of the limited laps....especially given that at best you’ll have around 3-4 laps per charge, and fast charging options are limited. A couple of the OEMs have ABB super fast chargers down in Meuspath, but even if they had access to that, they’d lose 20-40mins driving there, charging and driving back.
I’ve actually driven an EV around there in Industry Pool and have driven during a closed session to set a lap time in one, and I can assure you that a Tesla will certainly be in at the deep end. It’s a tough place on cars (especially EV’s) and it’s very, very difficult to get a good break in the weather. Good luck to them!
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 13th September 11:08
jjwilde said:
Gull Slayer said:
For me to go EV I would like a quoted 600 miles range or more. Then if its freezing cold and raining I would still have enough range with wipers, heaters and lights etc. on, with a diversion thrown in for good measure, and still not tickle my battery anxiety. Long while to wait I suspect!
The Tesla Roadster 2 apparently has a 620 mile range and a 0-60 under 2 seconds. Will likely be >£100k though.Few years back I would have said under 6 seconds to 60 is quick, under 4.5 fast. Now 4.5 seems slow.
If the range really is over 400 miles as well, that's unbelievable progress. Let alone over 600.
Ares said:
768 said:
You might need to see a doctor.
The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
That is, of course, true...however, on long journeys (250/300 mile+), I don't think I have ever stopped and only pee'd. We only do journeys of that length once or twice a quarter, we've never stopped for less than 20-30mins by the time we've used the toilet, let the dog use the toilet, got a coffee etc. 20-30 mins. The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
20-30mins on a supercharger would give over 50% charge.
£10 for charging, £20 for sundries.
RacerMike said:
130R said:
janesmith1950 said:
Lewis Hamilton beating F1 World Champion Rosberg not good enough to learn the 'ring and set a representative time? Really?
Yes apparently they should get someone who isn't good enough to race in F1 instead ..Put someone like Hamilton, Verstappen or Rosberg against any of the top drivers in WEC, Blancpain GT, VLN or Indycar in something like an GT car and I have absolutely no doubt they’d be right up there, winning races and getting fastest laps. But they absolutely wouldn’t be significantly faster than the guys already winning. Mainly because many of them were compatriots of the F1 guys in junior series and were equally winning as many races. Many of them beat the guys in F1 pretty resoundingly, but didn’t get the chance to get to F1 due to budget, or took a different path.
So back to The ‘Ring. Absolutely Hamilton or Rosberg could steer a car around there quickly. But if they’ve never driven the circuit properly, like any other circuit, it’s going to take them some laps to learn. It takes about 15-20 laps to learn a circuit. I would say it took me probably 25-50 to feel confident at the Ring and go for a proper time, but given the restrictions they will have next week in Industry Pool, it would make far more sense to chose someone with lots of experience. You’d get someone who knew how to set a fast lap there immediately, someone who could feedback on setup and performance with lots of experience or what makes a car fast around there, and you’d make the most of the limited laps....especially given that at best you’ll have around 3-4 laps per charge, and fast charging options are limited. A couple of the OEMs have ABB super fast chargers down in Meuspath, but even if they had access to that, they’d lose 20-40mins driving there, charging and driving back.
I’ve actually driven an EV around there in Industry Pool and have driven during a closed session to set a lap time in one, and I can assure you that a Tesla will certainly be in at the deep end. It’s a tough place on cars (especially EV’s) and it’s very, very difficult to get a good break in the weather. Good luck to them!
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 13th September 11:08
Best driver to ask to do it currently might be Timo Bernhard. But once again a Porsche driver so out of bounds.
Nico might be good marketing, but only if you get the record, anything else is marketing disaster.
I rate the Tesla getting the record at 60% now since they are heavily modding it purely on the car, still less than 50% on weather and short time they have to run.
Gandahar said:
This is a perfect summary.
Best driver to ask to do it currently might be Timo Bernhard. But once again a Porsche driver so out of bounds.
Nico might be good marketing, but only if you get the record, anything else is marketing disaster.
I rate the Tesla getting the record at 60% now since they are heavily modding it purely on the car, still less than 50% on weather and short time they have to run.
And that also assumes they don’t permanently melt something in the run up. I assume they’re re-calibrating stuff to make it last, and ultimatelyBest driver to ask to do it currently might be Timo Bernhard. But once again a Porsche driver so out of bounds.
Nico might be good marketing, but only if you get the record, anything else is marketing disaster.
I rate the Tesla getting the record at 60% now since they are heavily modding it purely on the car, still less than 50% on weather and short time they have to run.
they will probably have to push some of the safety limits to get enough performance for enough of the lap. When you start doing this, it’s like a normal car. You fix one issue and move it somewhere else. If they open up the limits on battery temp, then you start maxing out the current capability of things like HV connectors. I’ve seen battery connectors melt as a result of doing that. And then you have things like de-magnetisation of stuff if you get motors too hot. Anything major like this would put the car out of action for at least a couple of days even if they turn it around quickly. And then they’re back to square one, with new components but the same capability as before...
Gandahar said:
Ares said:
768 said:
You might need to see a doctor.
The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
That is, of course, true...however, on long journeys (250/300 mile+), I don't think I have ever stopped and only pee'd. We only do journeys of that length once or twice a quarter, we've never stopped for less than 20-30mins by the time we've used the toilet, let the dog use the toilet, got a coffee etc. 20-30 mins. The issue anyway is more that you can't fill the battery as fast as you can empty your bladder.
20-30mins on a supercharger would give over 50% charge.
£10 for charging, £20 for sundries.
Conversely, if (big IF) I did the journey in an EV, every hotel I've stayed at has charging points right there, so it charges overnight.
EVs are still less practical in a lot of real world situations, but their impracticality is wildly overplayed by a lot of people.
J4CKO said:
Yeah, they arent perfect by any means, yet.
But the pace of development is picking up, the prize is there. With IT you have the "Killer App" and with EV's we are waiting for the equivalent.
Its only a matter of time before it appears, 400 mile range, looks funky, sub 30k (£300 a month), goes like the clappers and no waiting list, Model 3 is the nearest currently.
With regards to charging, if it does 400 miles, that would do me, personally for a couple of weeks, like I dont need to get fuel every night now I am sure in that period I could find somewhere to charge it, more charging points are popping up.
While people are thinking of the range in terms of a single trip (and for most people in the UK 400 miles is more than they’d ever do in one day) the actual use case for most people is that as the range increases, so does the time in days between charges. So yes, if you have a 10 mile daily commute, you probably only need to charge once a fortnight. In which case what you need is a charger in a supermarket or shopping centre car park. But the pace of development is picking up, the prize is there. With IT you have the "Killer App" and with EV's we are waiting for the equivalent.
Its only a matter of time before it appears, 400 mile range, looks funky, sub 30k (£300 a month), goes like the clappers and no waiting list, Model 3 is the nearest currently.
With regards to charging, if it does 400 miles, that would do me, personally for a couple of weeks, like I dont need to get fuel every night now I am sure in that period I could find somewhere to charge it, more charging points are popping up.
Business model idea - put charging points in pub car parks, and offer cheap charging and ‘safer driver’ lifts home with a minimum spend in the pub. Using a new industry to keep an old one alive, as well as a great excuse to spend Saturday afternoons sat in the pub!
budgie smuggler said:
RacerMike said:
You’re falling into the trap that most motorsport fans are sold by F1. That all of them are on an completely different level to anyone else because ‘they are the best drivers in the world’. Sure, a good number of them are significantly above average, and a small number of those are genuinely in the top 1%. But consider for a moment that only 2-3 drivers on the 2019 grid are not bringing budget with them (ie paying) and much like the rest of motorsport, your talent is important, but your money is more so.
Put someone like Hamilton, Verstappen or Rosberg against any of the top drivers in WEC, Blancpain GT, VLN or Indycar in something like an GT car and I have absolutely no doubt they’d be right up there, winning races and getting fastest laps. But they absolutely wouldn’t be significantly faster than the guys already winning. Mainly because many of them were compatriots of the F1 guys in junior series and were equally winning as many races. Many of them beat the guys in F1 pretty resoundingly, but didn’t get the chance to get to F1 due to budget, or took a different path.
I'm not saying you're wrong; just interested. Who beat subsequent F1 drivers resoundingly but didn't go into F1?Put someone like Hamilton, Verstappen or Rosberg against any of the top drivers in WEC, Blancpain GT, VLN or Indycar in something like an GT car and I have absolutely no doubt they’d be right up there, winning races and getting fastest laps. But they absolutely wouldn’t be significantly faster than the guys already winning. Mainly because many of them were compatriots of the F1 guys in junior series and were equally winning as many races. Many of them beat the guys in F1 pretty resoundingly, but didn’t get the chance to get to F1 due to budget, or took a different path.
“You need two of three things to make it in motorsport. Talent, Luck or Money.”
Plenty of people are in F1 due to luck and money. Very few are there due to talent and luck alone.
And to provide some examples, just taking Lewis Hamilton, he finished 3rd to Jamie Green and Danny Watts in the 2003 Formula Renault Championship and a few others finished higher in the races that year.
RacerMike said:
Loads of people! I’m always surprised that there’s a lack of clarity/understanding about motorsport progression, and how the business works. It’s absolutely not about talent. Sure that plays a part, but there’s a well known expression in motor racing:
“You need two of three things to make it in motorsport. Talent, Luck or Money.”
Plenty of people are in F1 due to luck and money. Very few are there due to talent and luck alone.
And to provide some examples, just taking Lewis Hamilton, he finished 3rd to Jamie Green and Danny Watts in the 2003 Formula Renault Championship and a few others finished higher in the races that year.
Sorry Mike, thanks for replying but I deleted that post as I realised I was just being lazy and went and looked it up. “You need two of three things to make it in motorsport. Talent, Luck or Money.”
Plenty of people are in F1 due to luck and money. Very few are there due to talent and luck alone.
And to provide some examples, just taking Lewis Hamilton, he finished 3rd to Jamie Green and Danny Watts in the 2003 Formula Renault Championship and a few others finished higher in the races that year.
You must have caught it just before it went.Appreciated anyway.
Edited by budgie smuggler on Friday 13th September 13:48
budgie smuggler said:
RacerMike said:
Loads of people! I’m always surprised that there’s a lack of clarity/understanding about motorsport progression, and how the business works. It’s absolutely not about talent. Sure that plays a part, but there’s a well known expression in motor racing:
“You need two of three things to make it in motorsport. Talent, Luck or Money.”
Plenty of people are in F1 due to luck and money. Very few are there due to talent and luck alone.
And to provide some examples, just taking Lewis Hamilton, he finished 3rd to Jamie Green and Danny Watts in the 2003 Formula Renault Championship and a few others finished higher in the races that year.
Sorry Mike, thanks for replying but I deleted that post as I realised I was just being lazy and went and looked it up. “You need two of three things to make it in motorsport. Talent, Luck or Money.”
Plenty of people are in F1 due to luck and money. Very few are there due to talent and luck alone.
And to provide some examples, just taking Lewis Hamilton, he finished 3rd to Jamie Green and Danny Watts in the 2003 Formula Renault Championship and a few others finished higher in the races that year.
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