RE: INEOS confirms Grenadier for reveal in 2020
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
True, they will price it at what they think the market will tolerate and the 6cyl buyers will typically be less price sensitive. 6cyl will cost a fair chunk more to make due to it being bigger but the development costs will be as high as the 4cyl, yet amortised across a fraction of the units. Net of everything I think the 6cyl will cost a lot more to produce vs a 4cyl. Why is everyone thinking SUV and car market?
The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
CoupeKid said:
Why is everyone thinking SUV and car market?
The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
I’m assuming that they are aiming this at industry and global organisations, the sort that run their own general maintenance and run procurement out of places like London and that the basic construction will lend itself more easily and efficiently to required adaptations. The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
If you take a major mining company they currently need to buy a series of different vehicles to cater for the numerous light work that takes place around the core machinery from deployment of a particular tool to deployment of a group of people. It may transpire to be much cheaper and more efficient for such an operator to pay more initially for a vehicle like the Grenadier. Ie instead of buying a selection of transits, land cruisers and pick-ups, buying a single vehicle make that allows for more efficient group maintenance and management with the rear sections being different for the different on site requirements.
Who knows but I don’t think they are building their business case around selling individual units to individual consumers. And with Ineos being involved in global heavy industry I imagine they have a very good understanding as to where this type of product will supposedly fit.
Maldini35 said:
B10 said:
Designed by a German consultancy.
Spanish made chassis I understand.
German made engine (not the 4 cylinder BMW made in Birmingham).
Only decided to make in UK after much wooing by Wales,
Radcliffe domiciled in Monaco......yet voted for Brexit and makes this sound like a flag waving British exercise.
About as British as Heinz baked beans and Kellogs cornflakes.
I have to agree. Does feel a bit disingenuous.Spanish made chassis I understand.
German made engine (not the 4 cylinder BMW made in Birmingham).
Only decided to make in UK after much wooing by Wales,
Radcliffe domiciled in Monaco......yet voted for Brexit and makes this sound like a flag waving British exercise.
About as British as Heinz baked beans and Kellogs cornflakes.
I still wish them well - good for jobs and the product sounds potentially great
Edited by Maldini35 on Saturday 21st September 13:14
CoupeKid said:
Why is everyone thinking SUV and car market?
The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
Your analogy suggests that this market doesn’t actually exist anymore. It’s going to end up being a lifestyle SUV of some sort if it’s to be a success. Bmw in-line 6 is a massive indicator of that. They should have gone with some sort of PSA/Renault lower cost 4 pot. The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
By going monocoque Land Rover have abandoned that market and I think that’s what Ineos are trying to fill. The market where a Hi Lux won’t cut it and a Unimog is overkill.
Whether there’s a 25,000 a year market is another thing.
CoupeKid said:
The appeal of the Defender and its predecessors is their adaptability because of the ladder chassis. Think of all the things they’ve been made into from ambulances, fire engines, cranes and army lightweights and pink panthers. Anywhere you need a bit of off road ability.
That market doesn't exist in the same way that it once did, being eroded by vans, pickups and light trucks as they've all become more refined, faster and more agile. Remember things like Land Rover based campers or wreckers? Nowadays a VW Caravelle does the former better, a Mitsubishi Canter or small MAN, etc. does the latter. There's also the issue that bodybuilders/equipment manufacturers tend to be small businesses and can't afford or want to retool for a different chassis unless they really have to.Jag_NE said:
They should have gone with some sort of PSA/Renault lower cost 4 pot.
They can't just go with what they might want - OEMs don't largely sell components to just anyone. The choice of BMW smacks of this, a far better choice, infrastructure-wise, would be Mercedes, Ford, Toyota, etc. but they have little incentive to supply. For entering the US market, PSA would be pretty much a non-starter.Could it be that the inline six has been chosen for reasons deriving from its inherently balanced configuration? Long-term durability, reliability, NVH... Plus most of the pickups' 4-pots are well over 2.0L, but BMW can't offer a 2.4, 2.8 or 3.0 4-banger, so they have to go with a 6-pot to get the power and torque they want.
Plus it has historical resonance, from the old Series 2.6s to the South African-only M52B28 Defender.
Also, I wonder if the Grenadier with a six might be sufficiently competitive in price to steal sales from the boggo base four-pot versions of the Godawful new Offender, as I've taken to calling it... I'm afraid I find myself agreeing with 300bhp/ton, and not for the first time...
Plus it has historical resonance, from the old Series 2.6s to the South African-only M52B28 Defender.
Also, I wonder if the Grenadier with a six might be sufficiently competitive in price to steal sales from the boggo base four-pot versions of the Godawful new Offender, as I've taken to calling it... I'm afraid I find myself agreeing with 300bhp/ton, and not for the first time...
DonkeyApple said:
I’m assuming that they are aiming this at industry and global organisations, the sort that run their own general maintenance and run procurement out of places like London and that the basic construction will lend itself more easily and efficiently to required adaptations.
If you take a major mining company they currently need to buy a series of different vehicles to cater for the numerous light work that takes place around the core machinery from deployment of a particular tool to deployment of a group of people. It may transpire to be much cheaper and more efficient for such an operator to pay more initially for a vehicle like the Grenadier. Ie instead of buying a selection of transits, land cruisers and pick-ups, buying a single vehicle make that allows for more efficient group maintenance and management with the rear sections being different for the different on site requirements.
Who knows but I don’t think they are building their business case around selling individual units to individual consumers. And with Ineos being involved in global heavy industry I imagine they have a very good understanding as to where this type of product will supposedly fit.
Now that does make sense not just to mining companies but organisations like Unicef who would then only have to train there mechanics on one vehicle.If you take a major mining company they currently need to buy a series of different vehicles to cater for the numerous light work that takes place around the core machinery from deployment of a particular tool to deployment of a group of people. It may transpire to be much cheaper and more efficient for such an operator to pay more initially for a vehicle like the Grenadier. Ie instead of buying a selection of transits, land cruisers and pick-ups, buying a single vehicle make that allows for more efficient group maintenance and management with the rear sections being different for the different on site requirements.
Who knows but I don’t think they are building their business case around selling individual units to individual consumers. And with Ineos being involved in global heavy industry I imagine they have a very good understanding as to where this type of product will supposedly fit.
jason61c said:
Given the fact that JLR can’t make a single reliable product, it can only bode well for a new player
The majority of all the current warranty issues with modern cars are related to electronics. Given that the Grenadier will be using a BMW engine and it's associated electronics, I can't see it being much better, especially given that increasing the reliability of said electronics is usually a function of the amount of time and money you spend developing them and finding fault states.RacerMike said:
jason61c said:
Given the fact that JLR can’t make a single reliable product, it can only bode well for a new player
The majority of all the current warranty issues with modern cars are related to electronics. Given that the Grenadier will be using a BMW engine and it's associated electronics, I can't see it being much better, especially given that increasing the reliability of said electronics is usually a function of the amount of time and money you spend developing them and finding fault states.The difference will be not needing a 1000 extra sensors and ECU's for the suspension and terrain systems or the technology demonstration that is in most modern interiors.
In fact, sliding or winedy windows would be fine and simple central locking. No iPad in the dash, diff lockers instead of a complex terrain response system and coil spring suspension.
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