RE: Ferrari 488 Pista vs. Porsche 911 GT2 RS
Discussion
I liked the article and am hugely impressed by both cars. I'll never buy either because I couldn't see the point of either as a road car. That's not to say I would criticise anyone who did. They are both lovely things. I had a brand new 993 for my 40th. I'd lusted after a 911 from the age of 10. I would get a massive thrill every time I sat in the car. I carpeted the garage and would sit and look at it, as if it was a work of art. Which it was. Artificial light would bring out every small curve and detail. I never took it near a race track. Why would I? It was a road car. Nowadays, I have a road car for the road, a van for everyday transport and a small number of race cars for the track. Nothing exotic, mind you. A Citroen C1 endurance racer, historic Sports 2000's and a contemporary 200hp Duratec Sports 2000. Even the C1 makes fast road cars look pedestrian on-track (except in a straight line, obviously). The others, particularly the Duratec, on slicks, will make almost all road cars look silly. My total investment for six cars and one van (and a trailer) amounts to less than half the cost of either the GT2 or the Ferrari. However, it doesn't make my choice better, just different. The world would be a duller place without either of these cars, and the Lambos, McLarens, Pagainis etc. Rejoice that they exist, but respect everyone's personal decisions if they are different, however you choose to turn money into noise...
wab172uk said:
Did I say you'd have a dreadful time owning / driving either of these cars? No.
But they are to fast for the road to be fun, in terms of ragging them around. Best you'd get is to red line them in first and second. Third if no one around and you have a straight road. But you'll have much more fun driving a slower car that you can extend, rather than sitting in a car you have to restrain yourself in.
The Pista more so is (in the UK at least) more a status symbol than buying it to drive quickly on a Sunday. As Evo said in last years ECOTY, is Pista mullers most things while sat in 7th gear.
You just cannot extend the engines on the public road. You'll either run out of road / talent, or end up doing 6 months for dangerous driving. What's fun about that?
Horses for courses. I can't extend the engine in my current car on the public road beyond a quarter of its potential. I still find it hugely fun, knowing that it has that potential, and listening to it burble on the way to the shops at 30mph. Would I want to be in a piddly little hatchback to do the same? No thanks.But they are to fast for the road to be fun, in terms of ragging them around. Best you'd get is to red line them in first and second. Third if no one around and you have a straight road. But you'll have much more fun driving a slower car that you can extend, rather than sitting in a car you have to restrain yourself in.
The Pista more so is (in the UK at least) more a status symbol than buying it to drive quickly on a Sunday. As Evo said in last years ECOTY, is Pista mullers most things while sat in 7th gear.
You just cannot extend the engines on the public road. You'll either run out of road / talent, or end up doing 6 months for dangerous driving. What's fun about that?
In the terms you define, extending engines and running out of road/talent on the public road - well, that applies to any car from a middling 330i repmobile upwards, nevermind Porsches and Ferraris, and certainly nevermind halo GT2s and Pistas. What a silly thing to say - just about all cars nowadays are too fast for the public road at or near their limits.
I would certainly buy a Pista had I the means, and I certainly wouldn't want to get anywhere near its limits on the public road.
Both amazing cars and I'd have either in a heartbeat - so long as I had the money to use it properly. Yes it's fun (LOTS) to rag around the Welsh roads for a day, but that's coming from a journo who doesn't have to pay for maintenance. There are many valid reasons for wanting to own these or similar cars, the cheapest of which is because you always dreamed of having one in the garage and using it carefully on sunny days, all the way through to owning one because you truly want to exploit it to it's full potential on both track and the open road - and nothing wrong with either extreme or anything in between - you pays your money.
And yes you can exploit them on the road, I have had many incredible days in my 430 on country roads, devoid of traffic and open sighted, in the UK and abroad, on my own and in organised groups. I've also modified it for track use (brakes, suspension, wheels, tyres, weight, seats, aero, airboxes, exhaust, engine map) and it's an absolute hoot at and beyond the limit of grip. But this sort of use comes at a cost - pads, rotors, hubs, suspension joints, windscreens, undertrays, splitters, diffusers and paint(!) all become consumables that need regular attention in addition to the constant refresh of fluids - petrol, brake fluid, transmission fluid, engine oil, etc. Plus you're putting the miles on and we all know they melt after 30,000 miles so don't expect anything back once you're done with them.
Bottom line is, used appropriately, I don't agree with those who say these cars are too fast for the road. They are a joy to be in even at legal speeds and when the opportunity comes, and we all know those moments do come, the combination of sound, acceleration, grip and feedback is intoxicating. Thing is, we here on Pistonheads probably lean towards the usage side, so unless you can afford to both purchase AND run it, then the joy of driving it regularly and hard is soon diminished. A couple of years of big bills can quickly curtail your usage. The thing is they are supercars - they are not meant to be affordable, they are meant to be the toys of the rich. It's only the recent proliferation of cheap credit that has made them appear within reach to so many more people, something exploited by manufacturers. Unfortunately, finance doth not a service bill pay nor a tank replenish, nor a driving holiday to Spain underwrite.
Getting back to the two cars in the original article - both amazing, both capable of serving up shedloads of driving joy. Both hugely more capable than my 430. I wouldn't have either though - can't afford to use them they way I would want to. Hats off to those who can though - I'm very glad both cars and drivers exist.
And yes you can exploit them on the road, I have had many incredible days in my 430 on country roads, devoid of traffic and open sighted, in the UK and abroad, on my own and in organised groups. I've also modified it for track use (brakes, suspension, wheels, tyres, weight, seats, aero, airboxes, exhaust, engine map) and it's an absolute hoot at and beyond the limit of grip. But this sort of use comes at a cost - pads, rotors, hubs, suspension joints, windscreens, undertrays, splitters, diffusers and paint(!) all become consumables that need regular attention in addition to the constant refresh of fluids - petrol, brake fluid, transmission fluid, engine oil, etc. Plus you're putting the miles on and we all know they melt after 30,000 miles so don't expect anything back once you're done with them.
Bottom line is, used appropriately, I don't agree with those who say these cars are too fast for the road. They are a joy to be in even at legal speeds and when the opportunity comes, and we all know those moments do come, the combination of sound, acceleration, grip and feedback is intoxicating. Thing is, we here on Pistonheads probably lean towards the usage side, so unless you can afford to both purchase AND run it, then the joy of driving it regularly and hard is soon diminished. A couple of years of big bills can quickly curtail your usage. The thing is they are supercars - they are not meant to be affordable, they are meant to be the toys of the rich. It's only the recent proliferation of cheap credit that has made them appear within reach to so many more people, something exploited by manufacturers. Unfortunately, finance doth not a service bill pay nor a tank replenish, nor a driving holiday to Spain underwrite.
Getting back to the two cars in the original article - both amazing, both capable of serving up shedloads of driving joy. Both hugely more capable than my 430. I wouldn't have either though - can't afford to use them they way I would want to. Hats off to those who can though - I'm very glad both cars and drivers exist.
No Suspension Lifter on the Pista? Brave! Whilst the clearance isn't bad by supercar standards, on British roads I would always prefer to have the option to raise the nose a touch. As for the cost of the options on the Ferrari, some are ridiculous but you don't maintain exclusivity by being cheap. Many people think that all you're paying for with a Ferrari is the name - to those people I say drive one if you can and you'll discover the most sublime driving experience you can imagine. I don't mind if that has to be subsidised by £700 embroidery!
The Porsche has become a cliche. Stupendously ugly, sounds terrible and has all the bells and whistles that make the owner think it is a race car but it isn't.
The Ferriari does not deceive, looks better, crucially performs better and sounds a whole lot better.
Clearly Dan didn't write this.
The Ferriari does not deceive, looks better, crucially performs better and sounds a whole lot better.
Clearly Dan didn't write this.
gigglebug said:
I would love to have either, possibly the Pista slightly more.
I like it how the author puts an exclamation mark after the price of the white dials on the Porsche but is seemingly ok with the £700 odd for a bit of embroidery and floor mats in the Ferrari!
I'd be interested to know how well a Manthey GT2 MR copes on road, it certainly appears to be on another level for track use and I am sure that the benefits experienced from the dampers could translate to a better ability elsewhere too;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
That's a very good point you make! All the option prices are a bit silly. I'll take that out now...I like it how the author puts an exclamation mark after the price of the white dials on the Porsche but is seemingly ok with the £700 odd for a bit of embroidery and floor mats in the Ferrari!
I'd be interested to know how well a Manthey GT2 MR copes on road, it certainly appears to be on another level for track use and I am sure that the benefits experienced from the dampers could translate to a better ability elsewhere too;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&...
nickfrog said:
wab172uk said:
You just cannot extend the engines on the public road. You'll either run out of road / talent, or end up doing 6 months for dangerous driving. What's fun about that?
You could say the same thing about many new cars. It would certainly be the case in my humble Megane, hence having my fun on track.As for the perceived social status thing ; I think this comes from non owners.
The 488 will still sound lovely bimbling around, on start up etc. It'll feel like a lovely thing to sit in etc. It can still be enjoyed sensibly even if not exploited.
Matt Bird said:
That's a very good point you make! All the option prices are a bit silly. I'll take that out now...
Ha ha! It wasn’t a criticism Matt, I just found it amusing more than anything. Yes, more than one of the options are faintly ridiculous and I would love to know what the margin is on some of them!What is a lot of power good for on the public road?
For one, you're up to speed in a blink of an eye out of bends with limited view so still being able to enjoy them (but sideways if you like), and will basically never be lacking attack speed taking on bends with a clear view through them even if there was no clear line of sight just before them... Etc.
That said, if you can't even put down all of it below 60mph it's for sure a bit much, but not actually the case here?
For one, you're up to speed in a blink of an eye out of bends with limited view so still being able to enjoy them (but sideways if you like), and will basically never be lacking attack speed taking on bends with a clear view through them even if there was no clear line of sight just before them... Etc.
That said, if you can't even put down all of it below 60mph it's for sure a bit much, but not actually the case here?
GranCab said:
The little tricolore badge on the tail of my 812 was £800 ...... 
It is always a moot point realistically because if you have the means in the first place then adding 10-40K of extras to get the car exactly how you want it isn't going to phase many customers if thats what it takes. In the business I was involved in we had a few items which were around the 85% margin (good for using as bargaining tools to help seal deals) but nearly everything fell between 10-30% ish. I would genuinely be interested to see what it would be on two floor mats at over £700 and your badge!The price of non load bearing carbon bits make me laugh though as I know how much it actually costs to make high modulus load bearing cf parts as opposed to the cosmetic stuff. And it's many many multiples. But I guess that as a proportion to the overall cost it doesn't seem a lot and most people still think CF is some kind of high tech exotic/expensive material.
nickfrog said:
The price of non load bearing carbon bits make me laugh though as I know how much it actually costs to make high modulus load bearing cf parts as opposed to the cosmetic stuff. And it's many many multiples. But I guess that as a proportion to the overall cost it doesn't seem a lot and most people still think CF is some kind of high tech exotic/expensive material.
Yeah, non-load bearing CF in the same mold is heavier than plastic 
Onehp said:
nickfrog said:
The price of non load bearing carbon bits make me laugh though as I know how much it actually costs to make high modulus load bearing cf parts as opposed to the cosmetic stuff. And it's many many multiples. But I guess that as a proportion to the overall cost it doesn't seem a lot and most people still think CF is some kind of high tech exotic/expensive material.
Yeah, non-load bearing CF in the same mold is heavier than plastic "Those sufficiently monied could drive a McLaren Senna to any old track day, listen to podcasts and pick up a coffee, then blitz racing cars on the circuit.!!!...No chance
Chris Harris has already put the McLaren Senna claim of being faster than a race car to the test" which you guys would of watched because all petrol heads watch Chris"
The McLaren MP4 12C GT3 had 550hp vs the Sennas 800hp and the Senna got soundly thrashed by 7 sec a lap, even with 250hp advantage...
Come on guys, your better than that.
Chris Harris has already put the McLaren Senna claim of being faster than a race car to the test" which you guys would of watched because all petrol heads watch Chris"
The McLaren MP4 12C GT3 had 550hp vs the Sennas 800hp and the Senna got soundly thrashed by 7 sec a lap, even with 250hp advantage...
Come on guys, your better than that.
VR6 Eug said:
"Those sufficiently monied could drive a McLaren Senna to any old track day, listen to podcasts and pick up a coffee, then blitz racing cars on the circuit.!!!...No chance
Chris Harris has already put the McLaren Senna claim of being faster than a race car to the test" which you guys would of watched because all petrol heads watch Chris"
The McLaren MP4 12C GT3 had 550hp vs the Sennas 800hp and the Senna got soundly thrashed by 7 sec a lap, even with 250hp advantage...
Come on guys, your better than that.
That's a tyres thing tho - the Senna was on road tyres and the GT3 on race slicks. Swap out the road tyres on the Senna for some trackway tyres and those 7 seconds surely vanish.Chris Harris has already put the McLaren Senna claim of being faster than a race car to the test" which you guys would of watched because all petrol heads watch Chris"
The McLaren MP4 12C GT3 had 550hp vs the Sennas 800hp and the Senna got soundly thrashed by 7 sec a lap, even with 250hp advantage...
Come on guys, your better than that.
I get your point, tho.
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