RE: Next AMG C63 to go four-cylinder
Discussion
DoubleD said:
Max_Torque said:
Terminator X said:
The V8 guys / gals couldn't give a f
k about MPG though so what is your point?
TX.
Remember when everyone smoked and you could smoke everywhere? Yup, you might not care that you are giving yourself lung cancer, but everyone around you doesn't want it, so the current law prevents you smoking for your own "personal enjoyment" when it causes other people harm.k about MPG though so what is your point? TX.
Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
Max_Torque said:
Remember when everyone smoked and you could smoke everywhere? Yup, you might not care that you are giving yourself lung cancer, but everyone around you doesn't want it, so the current law prevents you smoking for your own "personal enjoyment" when it causes other people harm.
Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
While us car enthusiasts are a fairly small percentage of total car buyers, we're not an insignificant number by any means. A good friend of mine is a Mercedes sales exec. He's told me that approximately 60% of brand new C63 buyers over the last decade have purchased because of the car's character/nature over its rivals, while the remaining 40% have purchased because it's the top-of-the-range Mercedes C-class regardless of what's under the bonnet - they just wanted the best in that segment.
Edited by A44RON on Thursday 24th October 05:25
It's inevitable that ICE-powered personal transportation will almost disappear within the next 20-30 years. The social and environmental costs of ICE mean that we should look forward to this. I'm personally looking forward to the day when my company car doesn't have a crummy 4-cyl diesel and instead has a much quieter, smoother and efficient electric drivetrain.
This does not however mean that V8-powered cars etc. will simply disappear.
However, if ICE cars become a niche concern then the global impact becomes negligible and therefore tolerable as an enthusiast pursuit, much like horse riding or steam trains are today. No-one minds the odd pile or horse poo on a country lane, but they sure would complain if there were piles of decomposing crap on every high street like there used to be.
It might not make economic sense for a Mercedes-Benz to keep producing things like C63s as new cars forever, and we can lament that, but let's just accept they won't all disappear overnight.
This does not however mean that V8-powered cars etc. will simply disappear.
- Noisy and inefficient steam trains did not disappear when they were outperformed by diesel/electric and pretty much legislated out of main line use.
- Riding schools, horse riding and racing/showjumping as sports did not disappear when horses were displaced as beasts of burden by cars & trucks and concerns over animal welfare and street pollution.
- Cosy coal fires in village pubs and stately homes did not disappear when coal ceased to be used as a major source of power and heat for industry and homes due to overwhelming evidence of the environmental impact of large scale use.
However, if ICE cars become a niche concern then the global impact becomes negligible and therefore tolerable as an enthusiast pursuit, much like horse riding or steam trains are today. No-one minds the odd pile or horse poo on a country lane, but they sure would complain if there were piles of decomposing crap on every high street like there used to be.
It might not make economic sense for a Mercedes-Benz to keep producing things like C63s as new cars forever, and we can lament that, but let's just accept they won't all disappear overnight.
A44RON said:
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?
I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong, as I don't know about cruise ship emissions, but surely larger ones emit more and smaller ones emit less? This has the feel of one of those 'X urine samples on peanuts' stories - and that was made up (pre internet) to demonstrate just how quickly and far misinformation can travel. Gotta be careful with 'facts' these days...Edited by A44RON on Thursday 24th October 05:25
Baldchap said:
A44RON said:
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?
I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong, as I don't know about cruise ship emissions, but surely larger ones emit more and smaller ones emit less? This has the feel of one of those 'X urine samples on peanuts' stories - and that was made up (pre internet) to demonstrate just how quickly and far misinformation can travel. Gotta be careful with 'facts' these days...Edited by A44RON on Thursday 24th October 05:25
CO2 for 'a large cruise ship' is considerable, but less than stated, at 83,678 cars. Maybe that is 90-odd thousand Priuses, if we're making the numbers look big. That's normal usage and mileage though, not 24/7 @ 50mph, so sounds like the numbers might have been finessed a bit.
The big one for me is particulate emissions (the ones that cause cancer) at over one million cars equivalent!!!
Best get on a cruise before they disappear!
A44RON said:
Max_Torque said:
Remember when everyone smoked and you could smoke everywhere? Yup, you might not care that you are giving yourself lung cancer, but everyone around you doesn't want it, so the current law prevents you smoking for your own "personal enjoyment" when it causes other people harm.
Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
While us car enthusiasts are a fairly small percentage of total car buyers, we're not an insignificant number by any means. A good friend of mine is a Mercedes sales exec. He's told me that approximately 60% of brand new C63 buyers over the last decade have purchased because of the car's character/nature over its rivals, while the remaining 40% have purchased because it's the top-of-the-range Mercedes C-class regardless of what's under the bonnet - they just wanted the best in that segment.
Edited by A44RON on Thursday 24th October 05:25
We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
simonwhite2000 said:
A44RON said:
Max_Torque said:
Remember when everyone smoked and you could smoke everywhere? Yup, you might not care that you are giving yourself lung cancer, but everyone around you doesn't want it, so the current law prevents you smoking for your own "personal enjoyment" when it causes other people harm.
Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?Give it as little as 10 years, when everyone is doing 200 mpg, with zero tailpipe emissions and quiet cars, driving past in a roaring V8 doing 30 mpg is going to become socially unacceptable as lighting up a fag in a crowded train carriage is today............
While us car enthusiasts are a fairly small percentage of total car buyers, we're not an insignificant number by any means. A good friend of mine is a Mercedes sales exec. He's told me that approximately 60% of brand new C63 buyers over the last decade have purchased because of the car's character/nature over its rivals, while the remaining 40% have purchased because it's the top-of-the-range Mercedes C-class regardless of what's under the bonnet - they just wanted the best in that segment.
Edited by A44RON on Thursday 24th October 05:25
We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
Being a car engineer in this environment must be thoroughly depressing...
simonwhite2000 said:
Completely agree - everyone is banging on about ICE cars being the devil yet no mention of how much pollution comes from airplanes, buses, lorries, ships etc. I would also hope all these Greta Thunberg luvvies live in completely carbon neutral homes, use only renewable energy, walk or cycle everywhere or have only EV's, recycle everything, dont use plastic, never use a plane or ship, dont use disposable electrical goods like phones that have batteries etc. If they dont do all of these then they are simply a hypocrite in my eyes.
We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
The argument that the only acceptable improvement is perfection is always brought out and it's a load of rubbish. Any improvement is worthwhile, surely?We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
Climate change a fact. The overwhelming majority of people with a good understanding of it believe that it is caused by humans.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
You don't have to believe in it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is undeniably real, happening and likely bad if taken to its logical conclusion.
Whether you care about it is a different matter. For me, having worked in much of Asia, I'm not going to worry about my impact when 3 billion people are still burning their rubbish in piles. But to pretend the problem doesn't exist because either I don't understand it (and don't want to) or because it allows me to justify a lifestyle choice, makes people look a bit daft.
But you're right on the genders. There are two (three if you count hermaphrodites). You can tell which you are by looking.
Edit: But the hole in the ozone layer is at its smallest since it was detected, thanks to CFC usage dropping to almost zero.
Baldchap said:
simonwhite2000 said:
Completely agree - everyone is banging on about ICE cars being the devil yet no mention of how much pollution comes from airplanes, buses, lorries, ships etc. I would also hope all these Greta Thunberg luvvies live in completely carbon neutral homes, use only renewable energy, walk or cycle everywhere or have only EV's, recycle everything, dont use plastic, never use a plane or ship, dont use disposable electrical goods like phones that have batteries etc. If they dont do all of these then they are simply a hypocrite in my eyes.
We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
The argument that the only acceptable improvement is perfection is always brought out and it's a load of rubbish. Any improvement is worthwhile, surely?We used to constantly hear about the ozone layer and that it would simply disappear imminently that never happened and the story disappeared. Then it was global warming but some places cooled down so that didnt fit the globalist agenda. Now its climate change and an era of everyone being offended by everything and 100 genders. World has gone nuts.
Anyway digressing from the C63! Best to snap up and enjoy these V8's whilst they are around same for V12, V10 and V6's.
Climate change a fact. The overwhelming majority of people with a good understanding of it believe that it is caused by humans.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
You don't have to believe in it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is undeniably real, happening and likely bad if taken to its logical conclusion.
Whether you care about it is a different matter. For me, having worked in much of Asia, I'm not going to worry about my impact when 3 billion people are still burning their rubbish in piles. But to pretend the problem doesn't exist because either I don't understand it (and don't want to) or because it allows me to justify a lifestyle choice, makes people look a bit daft.
But you're right on the genders. There are two (three if you count hermaphrodites). You can tell which you are by looking.
Edit: But the hole in the ozone layer is at its smallest since it was detected, thanks to CFC usage dropping to almost zero.
Like you said though not everyone has to be fully on board and the world would be a boring place if all our views and opinions lined up.
Right now I am watching/listening to Merc c63 exhaust sound clips on youtube. No doubt EV/Tesla owners would find such behaviour an absolute disgrace ;-)
Baldchap said:
It would be quite amusing to drop a V8 or V10 into a Tesla just to see the reactions you'd get from both sides.
You sir win the internet today. If my Euromillions come in I am doing this as a project. Big large capacity petrol with terrible mpg and a loud performance exhaust. I would also fit a screen in the back window that showed the current MPG to further infuriate people. simonwhite2000 said:
You sir win the internet today. If my Euromillions come in I am doing this as a project. Big large capacity petrol with terrible mpg and a loud performance exhaust. I would also fit a screen in the back window that showed the current MPG to further infuriate people.
You should have a nice big Daily Mail sticker there too. 4 pots for that car, simply wrong. Keep them for the hot hatches and runabouts.
But downsizing is going on big time. I have a courtesy car today, it's a 2019 Honda Civic, a large hatchback that dwarfs the version i had as a Type R back in 2004. I was astonished to realise it has a mere 999cc! Just 3 cylinders as well.
But downsizing is going on big time. I have a courtesy car today, it's a 2019 Honda Civic, a large hatchback that dwarfs the version i had as a Type R back in 2004. I was astonished to realise it has a mere 999cc! Just 3 cylinders as well.
A44RON said:
The problem with that argument is those same types who may look down upon V8s in the future are quite happy to go on cruise-ship holidays, which is the ultimate in gluttonous CO2 emissions spewing excess. One cruise ship in a day emits as much CO2 as 94,000 Toyota Pruises running at 50mph non-stop for 24 hours constantly. Will peoples perceptions of cruise-ship holidays change?
Erroneous. Just because A is "bad" does not make "B" being bad any different.And the cruise ship thing is also erroneous. Hint, how many people get to work in a cruise ship everyday, compared to doing those miles in a private car.
Just in the UK, car total mileage is estimated to be 658 Billion KM in 2017, and of course a cruise ship has something like 1,000 people onboard, so your carbon footprint per person is divided down as well. Cruise operator Carnival reported in 2008 that their fleet returned around 400 g/km per person. A C63 AMG on an official test (significantly lower consumption than in the real world with traffic, cold starts, aggressive driving etc) returns around 200 g /km.
So your cruise ship, per KM is twice as bad as a C63 AMG per person, per Km, and whilst it's particulate emissions ARE indeed also bad, they tend to be released mainly in the middle of the ocean, far from centers of high population density, unlike those from a typical passenger car.
So, if we all commuted to work in cruise ships, yes, your 'argument' would be valid, but we don't....
And of course, cruiseships are being electrified and are driven by the same cost and economy decisions due to their use of a high carbon fuel as cars have been. Soon, imo, ANY high carbon activity (flying, cruising etc) may become socially frowned upon. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not in 5 10 or even 30 years time, but i think it will happen (especially should the real effects of climate change start to impact a rich 1st world nation, rather than some poor "sh*thole" (TM D.Trump) country far away........ )
Grindle said:
4 pots for that car, simply wrong. Keep them for the hot hatches and runabouts.
But downsizing is going on big time. I have a courtesy car today, it's a 2019 Honda Civic, a large hatchback that dwarfs the version i had as a Type R back in 2004. I was astonished to realise it has a mere 999cc! Just 3 cylinders as well.
Yep unfortunately its the future, small ICE HybridsBut downsizing is going on big time. I have a courtesy car today, it's a 2019 Honda Civic, a large hatchback that dwarfs the version i had as a Type R back in 2004. I was astonished to realise it has a mere 999cc! Just 3 cylinders as well.
Japan are masters of small ICE they have been doing it for decades
Diahastu did the Charade Gtti in the late 80's - 993 cc twin cam turbo 3 cylinder little rocket
Honda are still doing it 30 years later
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/general/daihatsu-...
SidewaysSi said:
Being a car engineer in this environment must be thoroughly depressing...
Quite the opposite in fact, as long as you aren't a Luddite.For example, I was part of the team that developed this:
When it was first announced PH said "why don't they just drop all the stupid, heavy, electrical nonsense and just use the V8" and in many threads on here, having actually driven the car i said, "just you wait, it's BRILLIANT because it IS electrified" and was mainly shouted down by the Luddites.
Then lo and behold, the car is released, driven by the press to critical acclaim:
it's a whole new thing
And it's the same with EVs. I've been saying for years now that EVs are the future, generally to most people disagreeing. Today we are, just a few short years later, well past the tipping point for EV adoption for the mass private car market. Today, the challenges of rushing to market the Battery Electric Vehicle are numerous, and, well challenging, but they offer massive benefits over a conventional ICE vehicle in terms of de-carbonisation, and critically for the OE PassCar industry, make emissions SEP (Someone Else's Problem) which following things like DieselGate, is a welcome relief
There has, imo, never been a better time to be an vehicle engineer :-)
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 24th October 13:25
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 24th October 13:25
Lt. Coulomb said:
simonwhite2000 said:
You sir win the internet today. If my Euromillions come in I am doing this as a project. Big large capacity petrol with terrible mpg and a loud performance exhaust. I would also fit a screen in the back window that showed the current MPG to further infuriate people.
You should have a nice big Daily Mail sticker there too. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff