RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed

[Killboy]

TellYaWhatItIs said:

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

What if the EV helps balance the grid, and solves the kettle problem?

[Court_S]

[quote=Jon_S_Rally

Agree 100%. I would never drive something like an i3. The styling is ridiculous to my eyes. I think this is part of why the Tesla Model 3 has been successful as, for the most part, it just looks like a car. People don't want something that looks like a spaceship.

[/quote]

I guess I’m in the minority because I like the i3. I like the use of carbon, the use of recycled materials etc. They’re actually a pretty nice place to be and drive well enough. But I also understand how it is decisive aesthetically and that’s a big problem in getting EV’s to the mass market. To date most have been a bit odd looking.

[DonkeyApple]

Killboy said:

TellYaWhatItIs said:

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

What if the EV helps balance the grid, and solves the kettle problem?

Could never work. It would require the ability to charge for electricity usage at different rates at different times and for there to be tonnes of spare capacity while everyone is asleep. You’d basically need people who had EVs to sign up to a different energy package. It’s just impossible. It could never be done. It’s not even as if it’s already available. In short, everyone is going to die. And they are going to die in the cold and dark.

[J4CKO]

I get that EV's aren't perfect yet, they are expensive, range can be an issue, finding a charging point can be as well, they are expensive and don't make Brum Brum noises.


What I don't get is how some, who have no experience of them have decided that it will never, ever work, because of

"The Grid Cannae take it"
"I cant charge it outside my flat"
"Cant afford one"

Then the environmental stuff comes out, pictures of mines and sad looking Indian children mining Cobalt, from people who completely don't get the irony of oil extraction and transport. Its usually blokes as well, the worst are classic owners, nobody is going to take your old car off you and no a 1973 Cortina isn't the Green option, if everyone drove those with the volume of traffic about nowadays we would be dropping dead in the streets.

The same folk that moan about computers on cars "Whats wrong with points and a carb", well they only reason you can still drive your classic is that everything else has combustion controlled by computer, they have been around since the 80s.

See it all the time "Share if you made a cart out of old planks and pram wheels, you had an AWESOME childhood", then all the old grumblers come on, "Not as good now", "In my day" - well guess what, things change, technology improves things and misty eyed rose tinted views of the past that wasn't all that great at the time wont cut it.

EV's are happening, buy one or don't, they will get better and better and many will wonder why they bothered with petrol and diesel.

Just admit it, you don't like change, that's fine but cooking up cock and bull to try and stop progress is pointless, the electric motor is just a better device for propelling vehicles in terms of most people criteria.

The noise engines make, we love but its a byproduct, like Coco Pops turning the milk brown, used to be a negative side effect but turned into a marketing advantage.

But, I personally cant afford one and don't really want one but I separate that from my opinion of them as whether I like them is immaterial, I am one of seven billion odd, they are the future of transport.

[DonkeyApple]

J4CKO said:

I get that EV's aren't perfect yet, they are expensive, range can be an issue, finding a charging point can be as well, they are expensive and don't make Brum Brum noises.


What I don't get is how some, who have no experience of them have decided that it will never, ever work, because of

"The Grid Cannae take it"
"I cant charge it outside my flat"
"Cant afford one"

Then the environmental stuff comes out, pictures of mines and sad looking Indian children mining Cobalt, from people who completely don't get the irony of oil extraction and transport. Its usually blokes as well, the worst are classic owners, nobody is going to take your old car off you and no a 1973 Cortina isn't the Green option, if everyone drove those with the volume of traffic about nowadays we would be dropping dead in the streets.

The same folk that moan about computers on cars "Whats wrong with points and a carb", well they only reason you can still drive your classic is that everything else has combustion controlled by computer, they have been around since the 80s.

See it all the time "Share if you made a cart out of old planks and pram wheels, you had an AWESOME childhood", then all the old grumblers come on, "Not as good now", "In my day" - well guess what, things change, technology improves things and misty eyed rose tinted views of the past that wasn't all that great at the time wont cut it.

EV's are happening, buy one or don't, they will get better and better and many will wonder why they bothered with petrol and diesel.

Just admit it, you don't like change, that's fine but cooking up cock and bull to try and stop progress is pointless, the electric motor is just a better device for propelling vehicles in terms of most people criteria.

The noise engines make, we love but its a byproduct, like Coco Pops turning the milk brown, used to be a negative side effect but turned into a marketing advantage.

But, I personally cant afford one and don't really want one but I separate that from my opinion of them as whether I like them is immaterial, I am one of seven billion odd, they are the future of transport.

I like classics and I like EVs. It’s the generic boxes in between that I have no interest in. Apart from the Seat Leon which I had as a loan car last week and was excellent. It did what it was asked to do, when asked. Never once thought it knew better, never did what it wanted to do and no passive aggressive tendency. Just a nice utility box that did as it was asked. First modern car I’ve driven in a long time that wasn’t crippled with Dunning Kruger Syndrome.

The foreseeable future of motoring is EVs for people who desire them, or can afford them, or can use them and ICE for everyone else. It’s almost as if there isn’t the slightest problem at all.

[Gojira]

DonkeyApple said:

Killboy said:

TellYaWhatItIs said:

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

What if the EV helps balance the grid, and solves the kettle problem?

Could never work. It would require the ability to charge for electricity usage at different rates at different times and for there to be tonnes of spare capacity while everyone is asleep. You’d basically need people who had EVs to sign up to a different energy package. It’s just impossible. It could never be done. It’s not even as if it’s already available. In short, everyone is going to die. And they are going to die in the cold and dark.

Damn, I nearly fell for that one!

Well played Sir.

I must admit, I was somewhat cynical about the ability of the generating companies and grid to cope, until I had a good natter over a beer or two with a couple of my mates who work in the industry, and they explained the analysis and modelling that says it will work.

[Terminator X]

otolith said:

Terminator X said:

Utter nonsense, EV's are still not being bought by massive numbers of people + if it weren't for Govt incentives (thank you taxpayer funding) then it would be even less.

I don't know about the next three years, but it's coming whether you like it or not. Sorry. Wishful thinking isn't going to make the bad EVs go away.

Peak oil, global warming, killer AI, everyone buying EV's ... always "a few years away".

TX.

[Terminator X]

unsprung said:

Your words are poorly chosen.

You've not read what I wrote. Here are the facts that justify my claims:

BEV GROWTH OF 200%
. . . 2020 . . . 3%
. . . 2025 . . . 9%

Source: J. P. Morgan estimates
https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/research/electric-...

Those aren't "facts", that is a prediction / projection.

TX.

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

Max_Torque said:

(And i'm struggling to think of which bits of the i3 design are "willfully" weird??

The side window line. The piggy little nostrils. The two-tone paint. I like the suicide doors, but they're nothing to do with electrification really.

It could have been a much more conventional looking car, but BMW wanted to make a statement and that's fine.

Ah so i guess what you really mean't was that is had a "willfully weird" styling, and not design (which encompasses much more than just how it looks)

[Gojira]

Terminator X said:

unsprung said:

Your words are poorly chosen.

You've not read what I wrote. Here are the facts that justify my claims:

BEV GROWTH OF 200%
. . . 2020 . . . 3%
. . . 2025 . . . 9%

Source: J. P. Morgan estimates
https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/research/electric-...

Those aren't "facts", that is a prediction / projection.

TX.

So as a Terminator from the future, what are the facts?

[Killboy]

DonkeyApple said:

Killboy said:

TellYaWhatItIs said:

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

What if the EV helps balance the grid, and solves the kettle problem?

Could never work. It would require the ability to charge for electricity usage at different rates at different times and for there to be tonnes of spare capacity while everyone is asleep. You’d basically need people who had EVs to sign up to a different energy package. It’s just impossible. It could never be done. It’s not even as if it’s already available. In short, everyone is going to die. And they are going to die in the cold and dark.

Fantastic!

[bakerstreet]

Andy20vt said:

The beginning of the end for Tesla

Pretty much this really. Tesla's biggest fear must have always been the day when the bog boys of car manufacturing catch up with them and start producing products in their sector. Also car manufacturers have a bigger dealer network and hundreds of years of experience on building cars unlike Tesla.

My guess is people who bought early Teslas went with that option because it was the only option at the time. In three years time, there will be alternatives to all of the Tesla range from the bigger manufactures. Wouldn't surprise me if Tesla ordered a Taycan as soon as they watched the release so they could rip it apart and take a look. If they are still around, they will do the same with i4 too.

[chow pan toon]

J4CKO said:

I get that EV's aren't perfect yet, they are expensive, range can be an issue, finding a charging point can be as well, they are expensive and don't make Brum Brum noises.


plus loads of good stuff

Imagine if cars had always been electric and we suddenly introduced internal combustion engines. Gears, noise, stinky cities, petrol stations etc etc. You'd be laughed at.

I love "proper" engines as much as anyone and they aren't going away any time soon. It doesn't mean that I don't realise that electric is the better solution for a growing number of people. If I was to buy a second car now, I'd want it to be electric.

[DonkeyApple]

bakerstreet said:

Pretty much this really. Tesla's biggest fear must have always been the day when the bog boys of car manufacturing catch up with them and start producing products in their sector. Also car manufacturers have a bigger dealer network and hundreds of years of experience on building cars unlike Tesla.

My guess is people who bought early Teslas went with that option because it was the only option at the time. In three years time, there will be alternatives to all of the Tesla range from the bigger manufactures. Wouldn't surprise me if Tesla ordered a Taycan as soon as they watched the release so they could rip it apart and take a look. If they are still around, they will do the same with i4 too.

I don’t think you should under estimate the brand power of Tesla. It’s come from nowhere to be one of the most aspirational objects after Relox watches, Chanol handbags for youngsters with no viable future. It’s the go to object for people who turn computers on and off again for a living. And judging by the number of them cruising the motorways at 55mph they are clearly a big hit with the MG Owners Club.

While there remains a plausible argument that the holders of Tesla equity could get wiped out I think the cars, brand and business are very much here to stay.

among the under 35s its a huge brand and that is the group that from now on will be defining the car market through either their purchases or how they use cars.

Products from the incumbents aren’t going to ‘kill’ Tesla. The more products there are, the larger the market becomes and the more people convert to EVs. Tesla will benefit from the market growing. The only real ‘Tesla killers’ are the folks running the Tesla company.

[LimaDelta]

chow pan toon said:

Imagine if cars had always been electric and we suddenly introduced internal combustion engines. Gears, noise, stinky cities, petrol stations etc etc. You'd be laughed at.

I love "proper" engines as much as anyone and they aren't going away any time soon. It doesn't mean that I don't realise that electric is the better solution for a growing number of people. If I was to buy a second car now, I'd want it to be electric.

The first electric cars appeared in the mid 19th Century. Imagine where we'd be now if development had been uninterrupted since then.

[DonkeyApple]

chow pan toon said:

Imagine if cars had always been electric and we suddenly introduced internal combustion engines. Gears, noise, stinky cities, petrol stations etc etc. You'd be laughed at.

I love "proper" engines as much as anyone and they aren't going away any time soon. It doesn't mean that I don't realise that electric is the better solution for a growing number of people. If I was to buy a second car now, I'd want it to be electric.

If all cars had always been electric and someone suddenly invented a box that was half the price and had no usage restrictions, no tax on fuel then I think you’d find it would sell quite well.

Let’s not get carried away with thinking that EVs aren’t heavily compromised tools that legislation is trying to force to do a job that less politically savoury legislation could do instantly and much more efficiently.

[Killboy]

DonkeyApple said:

If all cars had always been electric and someone suddenly invented a box that was half the price and had no usage restrictions, no tax on fuel then I think you’d find it would sell quite well.

But they are not half the price?

[ruggedscotty]

How many electric cars are there, more than there was last year.....

what about the interest ? there is loads of interest, most of the car buying customer base want...…

car to complete their commute, they have no interest in handling or performance other than how much salary it eats running it.

Tesla is a disrupter they brought in high end cars that made them a lot of money as there were nothing like it, other electric cars seemed to be experiments and trials.... nothing to get excited about, in fact one particular model scared the life out of GM enough that they crushed nearly every single one of them. The General realised that there was no ongoing profit to be made keeping an electric car on the road, very little serviceable items and no mark up on the parts, no licencing on the pattern parts etc....

Tesla a strangle hold on the charger network.... nah easy enough to sort that out. monopoly ? that can be resolved quickly and simply. its a charger, you make cars that use the same charging method or add in a means to adapt that charge process meet with the required parameters on your vehicle.

people like tesla same way as people like Apple.... you wont change them, but there are the types that want an electric car that's bespoke, if its got a tesla badge an Audi badge or a BMW badge it doesn't matter. they are happy going from A to B with a lower impact on their wallet.

Once the mainstream come on line I don't think that Tesla will survive, people want the known, the cars that have the mainstream behind them. And once we start to see this then the petrol engine era in cars will be over.

its not rocket science although Tesla likes to think it is.....

[J4CKO]

LimaDelta said:

chow pan toon said:

Imagine if cars had always been electric and we suddenly introduced internal combustion engines. Gears, noise, stinky cities, petrol stations etc etc. You'd be laughed at.

I love "proper" engines as much as anyone and they aren't going away any time soon. It doesn't mean that I don't realise that electric is the better solution for a growing number of people. If I was to buy a second car now, I'd want it to be electric.

The first electric cars appeared in the mid 19th Century. Imagine where we'd be now if development had been uninterrupted since then.

I am sure they would have been better than they are now, and a lot is down to where the development focus is directed, but also sometimes things have to grow organically.

I always mention how there is always a "placeholder" technology, it is what will work right now, even if its not the best way to do something, then other developments occur that are then the catalyst for the better tech to take over from the placeholder.


CRT's were about for what about 90 years, Liquid Crystal was reserved for watches until manufacturers perfected bigger and bigger screens with full colour, it took a while but the CRT which was huge, heavy, inefficient and expensive to produce was dropped as soon as LCD was good, and cheap enough.

The internet is a huge catalyst, for audio and video, wasn't so long ago we were going to get a huge tape containing a film, or later on a shiny disk, we didn't have to rewind it, but we still had to go and get it, then take it back,or fill a shelf full of the bloody things. Data speeds rise and physical media starts dying off almost instantly, its so much more elegant a solution. Yes some of us like old records, tapes, videos and the like but as someone said earlier, if the internet existed, would we create a VHS cassette ?

The placeholder always gets very well developed, but then gets blitzed out of existence as soon as the more elegant solution is viable and cost effective, it will take longer with cars than CRT's as they are bigger items and people attach a lot more value to old ones, nobody I don't think is going to an event where a load of folk display theur vintage Pye 26 inch telly and Ferguson videostar.



But, a machine that burns distilled oil via a complicated, and inefficient mechanical ballet that generates vast amounts of heat, vibration and noise vs the electric motor, a beautifully smooth, balanced, efficient, silent, simple, powerful etc device. Its just better in every meaningful way for its intended purpose, apart from the noise which we have grown to love, it is steeped in all sorts of emotions but if electric propulsion had always been viable, cant imagine anyone would have pursued developing something that gassed you and made a racket.


The actual motor isn't the problem, its just the energy storage, that is the catalyst, not just for the current adoption where its good enough, it will be when its better than using ICE alternatives, may still be a way off bit its happening.

In the meantime, we are going to look at Mustang GT's soon, makes no sense but we should enjoy the now however we see fit, this might be the good bit, can still have some lovely old motors, some exciting stuff coming and some great stuff out now !

[DonkeyApple]

Killboy said:

DonkeyApple said:

If all cars had always been electric and someone suddenly invented a box that was half the price and had no usage restrictions, no tax on fuel then I think you’d find it would sell quite well.

But they are not half the price?

A box that moves you from A to B using electricity will cost about £20k? You can get a transport box that uses petrol for under £10k. And petrol would cost pennies because it would just be a waste product of the plastics industry.

The trouble is that 100 years ago the petrol engine knocked out the EV by being the better product at moving people and goods about and 100 years on that hasn’t yet changed.

In a 100 years we have managed to get a handful of EVs on the road using massive government legislation. It’s only when they become viable alternatives for the masses on a free market economy basis will we see the big change.

Hopefully that isn’t too many decades away.