RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed

[CrossMember]

Why ditch the ICE and stick with the same old formula for packaging? What possible need is there for an EV to look anything like a 320d, the most soulless box on the road?

I want a ID.Buzz day-van thingy with slidey seat configurations, bike racks, camp bed, fridge, hot tub, pool table, helideck and 0-125 in 5 seconds.

Sadly, it'll be the 320d clone that makes it to production, not the innovative concepty Jetsons re-imagining of what a car could be.

[996TT02]

Andy20vt said:

The beginning of the end for Tesla

This. Once Tesla's USP disappears, people will go with established brands. It takes a generation - a human generation - for a new car brand to be accepted and build a reputation, good or bad. Today, 5 years is enough time for a revolution. Tesla does not have enough time.

Fundamentally people are buying a complete car first and foremost, "electric" is just an adjective that describes its drivetrain, no matter how different that may be. They will prefer brands that have been building cars for decades or more, they will trust them to deliver a more complete product.

Being as exciting to look at as a Ssangyong also helps not one iota.

[Black S2K]

otolith said:

But that's based on an internal combustion engine view of the world where if you want more power you have to install a larger and less fuel efficient engine and as a result your range goes down. Electric cars don't work like that, there isn't the same trade off in power and range. if you want more range you need to install a bigger battery, and if you do that you also get the ability to get more power out of it.

Indeed - if you only want 200BHP and commensurately longer-range, bond a rubber doorstop to the back of the go pedal. But the 500BHP might be useful in tricky situations...

[nickfrog]

Sten. said:

Just checking in to make sure fishy Greg and A1VDY have made their valuable contributions. Glad to see it's business as usual.

I thought the same. The systematic negativity is only matched by the total absence of reasoning.

[Limpet]

CrossMember said:

Why ditch the ICE and stick with the same old formula for packaging? What possible need is there for an EV to look anything like a 320d, the most soulless box on the road?

You call it soulless. I call it a car that is a benchmark for what an average person wants from a car. Lively performance, low running costs, seats four adults, handles nicely, comfortable, flies under the radar, is well put together, and (relatively) accessibly priced / finance-able. Other diesel saloons are available of course with similar attributes, but the point is these cars do what people want, at a price they can afford. And the mass market is where the profit is.

If EVs are going to have mass appeal, they need to tick these boxes. At the moment, you cannot buy an electric car that does everything a humble 320d does, unless you're willing (or able) to spend nearly twice as much.

[Black S2K]

CrossMember said:

Why ditch the ICE and stick with the same old formula for packaging? What possible need is there for an EV to look anything like a 320d, the most soulless box on the road?

I want a ID.Buzz day-van thingy with slidey seat configurations, bike racks, camp bed, fridge, hot tub, pool table, helideck and 0-125 in 5 seconds.

Sadly, it'll be the 320d clone that makes it to production, not the innovative concepty Jetsons re-imagining of what a car could be.

Given the high floors associated with big battery packs (almost akin to old body-on-frame construction), a conventionally-designed EV is likely more cramped than its ICE sibling. So yes, one of the ID thingies probably makes far more sense. Hot tub feature might be very useful for those that continually fast-charge them and cause battery degradation and subsequent fires...

[Jon_S_Rally]

GT119 said:

Bigger battery = increase in range AND as a by-product, an increase in power.
Assuming each axle is driven, the difference in size between a 100 hp and and 270 hp (peak power) electric motor is really not that great as the size is more a function of the continuous torque rating required for sustained cruising.
The extra performance is therefore almost free, so why would you not have it?

Because most people on the road shouldn't be let loose with 100bhp, let alone 500

CrossMember said:

Why ditch the ICE and stick with the same old formula for packaging? What possible need is there for an EV to look anything like a 320d, the most soulless box on the road?

I want a ID.Buzz day-van thingy with slidey seat configurations, bike racks, camp bed, fridge, hot tub, pool table, helideck and 0-125 in 5 seconds.

Sadly, it'll be the 320d clone that makes it to production, not the innovative concepty Jetsons re-imagining of what a car could be.

You call the 320d a soulless box, while many call it a stylish, comfortable, practical car. Similarly, many would call the ID.Buzz van a gimmicky, tacky, nasty box.

The easiest way to get people to adopt EVs is to make them feel like what we have now, i.e. what people are used to and comfortable with. Then, once people are used to them, you can start to introduce different packages. EVs are the biggest shift in the car since, well, the invention of the car really, so it's going to take time. If you make them look like spaceships or weird pods, most people will be put-off.

[swisstoni]

This is early days of EV car design I suppose. The tech is basically being shoved into the existing car shapes asap to satisfy a pretty sudden demand for green stuff.
I'm looking forward to what styles car makers come up with when they've had time to come to terms with packaging EV bits.

[anonymous-user]

RobDickinson said:

lol at all the BMW butt hurt.

I'm sure the i4 will be a decent effort, but lets not get excited about the stats until its actually in testers hands, none of the German cars have yet measured up even close to what they crowed about before launch.

Do you mean like a lap of the ring, which wasn’t?

BMW will soon be selling a lot of EV and Tesla will be a battery manufacturer at best.

[otolith]

Last 3-series I drove was a new 320d courtesy car in 2016.

It was inoffensive, but utterly ordinary.

[LimaDelta]

Jon_S_Rally said:

The easiest way to get people to adopt EVs is to make them feel like what we have now, i.e. what people are used to and comfortable with. Then, once people are used to them, you can start to introduce different packages. EVs are the biggest shift in the car since, well, the invention of the car really, so it's going to take time. If you make them look like spaceships or weird pods, most people will be put-off.

I'll be very disappointed (though not unsurprised, especially from the German manufacturers) if the future looks exactly the same as the past. We looked at the e-Golf before we bought the i3. Just as boring as any other Golf, but with an EV drive train.

I totally get it though. Most people fear change, and seek comfort in the familiar. Manufacturers will not want to take unnecessary risks, because ultimately they need to sell cars. I just feel that it will be such a wasted opportunity if we have a chance to almost literally reinvent the wheel but end up with more of the same dull uninspired designs.

[wisbech]

In many (most?) markets, saloons like 320 are comprehensively outsold by SUVs, hatchbacks and truck formats. So it isn’t what the average person wants

3 box is a pretty inefficient use of space, it hangs on due to cultural inertia and some legitimate concern about not having people easily see what is in the boot. But since 1983, in my immediate family, the only saloons have been from company car lists that were restricted to them. Estates & hatches when anyone spends their own money.

[Terminator X]

unsprung said:

9k rpm said:

I really think cars like these will be the tipping point for the EV market...

Ares said:

Give it chance.... When current platforms were in design stage, EV was still not a mainstream short-term plan.

Court_S said:

My guess is that by making it look like a normal car then it’ll sell better.

+1

The next 36 months could be historic.

Legacy OEMs will unleash cars that are remarkable because, well, they're not remarkable -- if you see what I mean. They will be BEVs that require little compromise whilst looking normal or interesting in a mainstream way.

I'm not suggesting an immediate inversion of the percentage of BEV and ICE cars. The estimates are clear on that.

I reckon, however, that a significant percentage of PHers will have a "eureka moment" or -- don't laugh there in the back! -- even a life-changing experience during the next three years.

A good percentage of PHers will have purchased or leased a BEV. Many more will have been a passenger and/or driver in a friend's BEV.

Likely to occur at some point in the next 36 months... "Remember when...?"

Utter nonsense, EV's are still not being bought by massive numbers of people + if it weren't for Govt incentives (thank you taxpayer funding) then it would be even less.

TX.

[wisbech]

Best selling car in US - F150 truck
Australia - Hilux truck
Japan - SUV (N box)
India / SUV (Kia Seltos)
China SUV/ people carrier Wuling Hong Guang
Indonesia - SUV (Avanza)
Germany - Hatchback (Golf)

Would be surprised if there is any market where a saloon is what the average person buys.

Not surprising that car manufacturers aren’t bothering to lead with saloon EV

Edited by wisbech on Tuesday 19th November 13:42

[just passing by]

If this is the best that BMW can do, for a car that won't be widely available for another two years, it's a depressing indictment on the company's failure to embrace the BEV challenge. VW's BEV range is also underwhelming. Porsche's Taycan is impressive, but you pay for the privilege.

As others have said, the 2017 Tesla 3 has 300+ miles of range and does 0-60 in 3.2 secs. By 2021 Tesla will be selling cars with 400-500 miles of range and even faster charge times. Tesla has a stranglehold network-effect in its global supercharger network, and its self-driving software is streets ahead of other car manufacturers. Europe's being soundly beaten here, sadly.

[TellYaWhatItIs]

Was chatting with a very knowledgeable chap last week form Dayco, doing some product training with me.
He relayed a story form a recent industry event where an even more knowledgeable German Engineer with no particular axe to grind (independent University Type) got up on stage and stated some facts. My take away from this was that even IF only 30% of ICE cars were changed for EVs, at ~ 6.00pm every evening the entire UK energy grid would collapse under the strain of everyone 'plugging in'.

'Mild' or self charging hybrids for the foreseeable future at least are a more viable option.

My own personal 2p, the mining of REEs is a very dirty and environmentally unfriendly business, hence the rest of the world has been quite happy to let Chine mine, process and sell 90% of the world's REEs for the past 20 years. China has already indicated they are going to reduce the tonnage mined and there is such demand for these minerals from all kinds of industry that Automotive isn't actually at the top table when it comes to securing supply. Weapons systems, radars, aviation, consumer goods and electronics mostly outweigh the automotive industry. So in other words, steady consistent fixed rate supply is not guaranteed hence production and price vulnerability going forward.

So to manufacture new automotive products at an increased cost using very dirty oil and benzene based products to include battery tech that requires very unclean REEs, even subsidised at state level at time of purchase and all charged using fossil fuel derived electricity isn't exactly going to save the planet anytime soon is it?

Better to keep our old Volvos and MX5s on the road as they have already paid their mortgage so to speak in terms of carbon footprint.

[Jon_S_Rally]

LimaDelta said:

I'll be very disappointed (though not unsurprised, especially from the German manufacturers) if the future looks exactly the same as the past. We looked at the e-Golf before we bought the i3. Just as boring as any other Golf, but with an EV drive train.

I totally get it though. Most people fear change, and seek comfort in the familiar. Manufacturers will not want to take unnecessary risks, because ultimately they need to sell cars. I just feel that it will be such a wasted opportunity if we have a chance to almost literally reinvent the wheel but end up with more of the same dull uninspired designs.

I guess what's boring to you is what works well for others. If we want people to adopt EVs, the most effective way is to give them something familiar, as people like and desire normal cars. The major redesigns will likely come in time but, by the time they do, we may be totally rethinking the way we travel anyway, so it might not even be necessary.

Right now, I'm not sure the wheel needs reinventing. When ICE-powered cars are still going to be a feature for a long time, it probably makes more sense from a resource perspective to have one platform that supports both propulsion types, rather than wasting resources on producing two for every segment.

just passing by said:

If this is the best that BMW can do, for a car that won't be widely available for another two years, it's a depressing indictment on the company's failure to embrace the BEV challenge. VW's BEV range is also underwhelming. Porsche's Taycan is impressive, but you pay for the privilege.

As others have said, the 2017 Tesla 3 has 300+ miles of range and does 0-60 in 3.2 secs. By 2021 Tesla will be selling cars with 400-500 miles of range and even faster charge times. Tesla has a stranglehold network-effect in its global supercharger network, and its self-driving software is streets ahead of other car manufacturers. Europe's being soundly beaten here, sadly.

Not sure it's as simple as that. Tesla are behind the major OEMs in some ways, just like they are behind Tesla in others. While Tesla have obviously had a major impact on the motor industry, they're not exactly making vast chunks of money out of it, which is not a great mark of success. I've sat in a Model 3 and it makes a Hyundai feel upmarket. The major OEMs make mincemeat of them when it comes to that sort of thing.

You can bet that lessons learned from the Taycan will quickly filter down to other products in the VAG group. Within five years, I imagine Tesla will be having a much harder time of it and may well be swallowed up, or just resort to making batteries. The impact that Tesla have had is impressive, there is no doubt about that, but the real test is whether they can keep it up. Given the resources of the industry, my instinctive answer would be no.

[otolith]

Terminator X said:

Utter nonsense, EV's are still not being bought by massive numbers of people + if it weren't for Govt incentives (thank you taxpayer funding) then it would be even less.

I don't know about the next three years, but it's coming whether you like it or not. Sorry. Wishful thinking isn't going to make the bad EVs go away.

[otolith]

TellYaWhatItIs said:

Was chatting with a very knowledgeable chap last week form Dayco, doing some product training with me.
He relayed a story form a recent industry event where an even more knowledgeable German Engineer with no particular axe to grind (independent University Type) got up on stage and stated some facts. My take away from this was that even IF only 30% of ICE cars were changed for EVs, at ~ 6.00pm every evening the entire UK energy grid would collapse under the strain of everyone 'plugging in'.

He must know something that the people who actually run our energy infrastructure do not.

[LimaDelta]

Jon_S_Rally said:

When ICE-powered cars are still going to be a feature for a long time

Are they really though? With increasing city centre ULEZs and rising punitive VED how much longer do you think people will keep on buying ICE cars? I think in 10 years time the petrol-engined cars will be the niche and the BEVs the default choice.