RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed

RE: BMW i4: 530hp, 372 miles of range confirmed

Author
Discussion

Shaoxter

3,434 posts

72 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
TellYaWhatItIs said:
Was chatting with a very knowledgeable chap last week form Dayco, doing some product training with me.
He relayed a story form a recent industry event where an even more knowledgeable German Engineer with no particular axe to grind (independent University Type) got up on stage and stated some facts. My take away from this was that even IF only 30% of ICE cars were changed for EVs, at ~ 6.00pm every evening the entire UK energy grid would collapse under the strain of everyone 'plugging in'.
People with EVs will move to EV energy tariffs where you get much cheaper electricity at night. You plug it in after you get home and set the charger to charge during the night hours.

TellYaWhatItIs

54 posts

38 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
More data for you to digest then.

There are circa 32.5 million ICE cars on UK roads. And only ~ 186,000 Plug in and EVs.

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

Also, you're missing the point, it's the generation that needs to be clean, not the car using it. You still burn fossil fuels to generate electricity with something like only 5% coming form renewables. Then you have the open cast mines where REEs are mined and the mess that makes to the environment.

otolith

39,249 posts

152 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Someone needs to do an electric car bingo card.

Earthdweller

3,371 posts

74 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
TellYaWhatItIs said:
More data for you to digest then.

There are circa 32.5 million ICE cars on UK roads. And only ~ 186,000 Plug in and EVs.

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

Also, you're missing the point, it's the generation that needs to be clean, not the car using it. You still burn fossil fuels to generate electricity with something like only 5% coming form renewables. Then you have the open cast mines where REEs are mined and the mess that makes to the environment.
Nationality around 40% live in either terraced housing or flats and in London over 70% live in flats or terraced housing .. I’d suggest a number of the semi’s there don’t have off street parking as well

Infrastructure wise is becomes rather problematic if they all try and charge their cars at home !

unsprung

3,826 posts

72 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
unsprung said:
9k rpm said:
I really think cars like these will be the tipping point for the EV market...
Ares said:
Give it chance.... When current platforms were in design stage, EV was still not a mainstream short-term plan.
Court_S said:
My guess is that by making it look like a normal car then it’ll sell better.
+1

The next 36 months could be historic.

Legacy OEMs will unleash cars that are remarkable because, well, they're not remarkable -- if you see what I mean. They will be BEVs that require little compromise whilst looking normal or interesting in a mainstream way.

I'm not suggesting an immediate inversion of the percentage of BEV and ICE cars. The estimates are clear on that.

I reckon, however, that a significant percentage of PHers will have a "eureka moment" or -- don't laugh there in the back! -- even a life-changing experience during the next three years.

A good percentage of PHers will have purchased or leased a BEV. Many more will have been a passenger and/or driver in a friend's BEV.

Likely to occur at some point in the next 36 months... "Remember when...?"
Utter nonsense, EV's are still not being bought by massive numbers of people + if it weren't for Govt incentives (thank you taxpayer funding) then it would be even less.

TX.


Your words are poorly chosen.

You've not read what I wrote. Here are the facts that justify my claims:

BEV GROWTH OF 200%
. . . 2020 . . . 3%
. . . 2025 . . . 9%

Source: J. P. Morgan estimates
https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/research/electric-...





Ares

8,907 posts

68 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
nunpuncher said:
Shaoxter said:
I would have thought 530bhp in an EV would have equated to a faster 0-62 time than that?
It'll probably weigh 2.5t.

Can't help chuckling at the comments about this being bought by people who want a driver's car that handles and is well screwed together. Have none of you driven a modern BMW?
Yes. Real question is, have you? Or did that chip on your shoulder get in the way?

jamoor

10,482 posts

163 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
just passing by said:
If this is the best that BMW can do, for a car that won't be widely available for another two years, it's a depressing indictment on the company's failure to embrace the BEV challenge. VW's BEV range is also underwhelming. Porsche's Taycan is impressive, but you pay for the privilege.

As others have said, the 2017 Tesla 3 has 300+ miles of range and does 0-60 in 3.2 secs. By 2021 Tesla will be selling cars with 400-500 miles of range and even faster charge times. Tesla has a stranglehold network-effect in its global supercharger network, and its self-driving software is streets ahead of other car manufacturers. Europe's being soundly beaten here, sadly.
I disagree on the last part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adwrz9OXlkQ

cvega

348 posts

107 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Greg the Fish said:
Trying too hard to disguise that hideous front end.

Who in their right mind would take one of these over a Tesla?
Have you seen quality of Tesla paint? lol


And yes I mean currently delivered model 3's

Ares

8,907 posts

68 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Terminator X said:
What weight though? The battery alone is 550kg's!

TX.
True, but engine and ancillaries can weigh towards 200-250kg. Then had in the ICE drivetrain (then minus the EV drivetrain), plus exhaust system, Fuel and tank.... It won't get to 500kg, but it won't be that far away.


RobDickinson

27,811 posts

202 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Ares said:
Terminator X said:
What weight though? The battery alone is 550kg's!

TX.
True, but engine and ancillaries can weigh towards 200-250kg. Then had in the ICE drivetrain (then minus the EV drivetrain), plus exhaust system, Fuel and tank.... It won't get to 500kg, but it won't be that far away.
And batteries are getting lighter/more energy dense every year.

Model 3 sr+ is about 1650kg not that different to the competition

unsprung

3,826 posts

72 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
And batteries are getting lighter/more energy dense every year.

Model 3 sr+ is about 1650kg not that different to the competition
Goodness, gracious. That is impressive.



Max_Torque

14,393 posts

165 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
otolith said:
Manufacturers are still making quite conventional looking EVs (most of the i3's weirdness was just wilfully weird rather than particularly innovative)
Lets face it, some people like conventional, some people like weird. Today, you can have either depending on personal choice, which is terrific!

(And i'm struggling to think of which bits of the i3 design are "willfully" weird??

It has a carbon tub for low mass, high stiffness. It has aluminium front and rear subframes for assembly and easy crash replacement, The pillar-less doors, possible due to the ultra strong CF tub, save a large amount of mass because they mate together and hence you don't need a central pillar between them, the wheels are tall because they need to be narrow for low loss, so a tall profile elongates the contact patch to get good grip from the width, the battery is safely mounted below the floor in it's own crash structure, those two things mean you're going to have a "tall" kinda look to the thing as it's a relatively narrow body(to get a low frontal area). The body panels are all plastic and are just "hung" onto the body frame with velcro
(yes really) and some plastic locking fasteners. The interior is a (very good imo) attempt to bring space and light to the insides of a normally very boring cabin, the deep wndscreen allows the bonnet to flow into the roof (lower drag). Structural and partially structural glass allows the tailgate to be light yet simple.

Sure those design details wouldn't work if it were trying to be a low slung sports coupe, but it's not. It's (primarily) a city car, that just happens to be as fast as a lot of "sports" cars.........

Max_Torque

14,393 posts

165 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Ares said:
Terminator X said:
What weight though? The battery alone is 550kg's!

TX.
True, but engine and ancillaries can weigh towards 200-250kg. Then had in the ICE drivetrain (then minus the EV drivetrain), plus exhaust system, Fuel and tank.... It won't get to 500kg, but it won't be that far away.
Worth noting that a multi speed auto or DSG transmission in a modern car weighs the same as the base engine, and that the exhaust and after-treatment ( Catalyst(s), PPF/DPF/SCR and mufflers) generally weighs around 65 kg alone these days!

RobDickinson

27,811 posts

202 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
unsprung said:
RobDickinson said:
And batteries are getting lighter/more energy dense every year.

Model 3 sr+ is about 1650kg not that different to the competition
Goodness, gracious. That is impressive.
Just checked and its 1611kg!

otolith

39,249 posts

152 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
(And i'm struggling to think of which bits of the i3 design are "willfully" weird??
The side window line. The piggy little nostrils. The two-tone paint. I like the suicide doors, but they're nothing to do with electrification really.

It could have been a much more conventional looking car, but BMW wanted to make a statement and that's fine.

Ares

8,907 posts

68 months

Tuesday 19th November
quotequote all
otolith said:
Max_Torque said:
(And i'm struggling to think of which bits of the i3 design are "willfully" weird??
The side window line. The piggy little nostrils. The two-tone paint. I like the suicide doors, but they're nothing to do with electrification really.

It could have been a much more conventional looking car, but BMW wanted to make a statement and that's fine.
BMW were unconstrained by the limitations of an ICE, so took advantage but made sure it still had a familial look.

DonkeyApple

35,152 posts

117 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Jon_S_Rally said:
The thing that irks me about cars like this is the use of a separate platform. Of course the architecture needs of an EV can be rather different to that of an ICE car, but making an EV platform and an ICE platform seems massively inefficient. Finding ways to fit EV powertrains/batteries into existing vehicles, or developing single platforms that can support both (or a combination) would seem much more sensible to me. It's clear that ICE and hybrid cars are going to play a role for some time yet, so why not just offer platforms that can do all three? Hyundai have done it with the IONIQ which, although a bit of a minger, seems a really sensible way forward.

The EV I and many others want is still very much a normal car, without the token space-age looks, but with normal styling, normal equipment, normal interior space, normal range and normal performance. It just seems to me that, sadly, many of the EVs coming out at the moment are as much a virtue-signalling marketing exercise as they are a serious transport proposition.
It’s easy to understand why they’ve needed to go down the skateboard chassis route for their EVs. The key to profitability in the volume side is time on production line and this is going to be much quicker to build. VW reckon that within a few years the speed at which they can role out their small EVs will be up to 30% quicker than the current ICE products which are already phenomenally efficient and quick.

It also paves the way for total flexibility of design in the coming years. We have a set of shapes which we are used to now that have essentially been defined by the running gear of the ICE and while safety requirements have also grown to support this shape it is not too hard to imagine that in time the use of a different type of powertrain will stimulate a change in design that a skateboard chassis can facilitate very easily.

You’re absolutely right that ICE is going to be around far longer than some are thinking. The current type of EV with its very heavy, very costly and inefficient power storage mechanism means that it is not the answer to all forms of transport. With the current clumsy, 20th century style of energy storage ICE will be around for many years to come. And that is in the West where the affluent people are and the people who can and will buy EVs. And it’s only in the handful of countries who are running subsidies. There is a whole planet out there full of people who use cars everyday who simply will not be switching to EV any time soon.

And I agree 100% over the needless complexity. We are currently reliving the 80s in terms of tech styling with manufacturers slapping as many gizmos, flashing things and beeping things as possible all over the place. Dashboards have morphed into the council estate race for the largest possible TV. It’s like the 80s stack em high, sell em cheap Asian stereo system wars where electrical stores competed for HP contracts using really tacky and classless kit to hoover up as many bottom end consumers as possible.

Conversely, you have always had things like the UK based sound systems who have tended to use technology to make tech disappear not hurling it into consumer and user faces like a market stall vendor trying to flog knock off kit.

But we aren’t in a consumer phase where elegance or sophistication is in any viable demand. We are at the end of a debt fuelled, in your face, look at all my tat and bling consumer era. And this is also meeting with the early phase of commercially viable and usable EVs where the manufacturers think that because the power plant is an electric motor that therefore the whole car must be filled with as much visible gadgetry as possible. The reality is that the LazyBoy places in front of the biggest TV possible is tacky. The deck littered with buttons and LEDs and continually pinging is tacky. But in time there will be an evolution where consumers revert to being a bit more sophisticated and manufacturers will respond accordingly.

The one thing about EVs is that you could create the most elegant, stylish, subtle and sophisticated car that has ever existed. Smooth, quiet, not at all brash or shouty and inside a cabin laid out purely for practicality and comfort and with intelligent tech that is not on show, just working flawlessly in the background not telling you what it is doing every few seconds, not shouting ‘look at me’. Total, peaceful elegance. But there isn’t yet the consumer demand for subtle class and sophistication.

DonkeyApple

35,152 posts

117 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
RobDickinson said:
Ares said:
Terminator X said:
What weight though? The battery alone is 550kg's!

TX.
True, but engine and ancillaries can weigh towards 200-250kg. Then had in the ICE drivetrain (then minus the EV drivetrain), plus exhaust system, Fuel and tank.... It won't get to 500kg, but it won't be that far away.
And batteries are getting lighter/more energy dense every year.

Model 3 sr+ is about 1650kg not that different to the competition
All that does is highlight just how cripplingly fat, heavy and unenvironmental cars have become.

We’ve had 30 years of the fastest technological expansion ever experienced with little sign of abatement and the whole car industry over that 30 year period has been chucking out bigger, fatter, more toxic products every single year.

The fact that in 2019 the typical, small saloon weighs in at 1650kg is a farce.

And it makes a farce of the whole argument that EVs in their current guise are a credible solution to the problem of excess human consumption.

It is going to require completely new and genuinely efficient battery tech for EVs to be the true solution to our problem. But right now the only credible solution, if we do have a man made problem, is for people to stop buying lots of big, fat cars whatever powers them.

The uncomfortable reality is that people need to be buying smaller, lighter cars that use far fewer raw materials and consumer far less energy as well as making fewer journeys and simply buying less rubbish.

You can’t really consume your way out of a consumption problem. biggrin

DonkeyApple

35,152 posts

117 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
TellYaWhatItIs said:
More data for you to digest then.

There are circa 32.5 million ICE cars on UK roads. And only ~ 186,000 Plug in and EVs.

Do you think our ageing grid could really cope if 30% of drivers decided next year to adopt EVs, 10 million people plugging their cars in at once? heck, we already struggle with kettles to boil water during peak times.

Also, you're missing the point, it's the generation that needs to be clean, not the car using it. You still burn fossil fuels to generate electricity with something like only 5% coming form renewables. Then you have the open cast mines where REEs are mined and the mess that makes to the environment.
We’ve shifted quite progressively away from things like coal generated energy and are continuing to do so.

At the same time, EVs shift their carbon pollution away from where people live to where people don’t and also where the carbon can be better trapped. While this might not limit global carbon emissions it has a huge positive impact on the direct impact of pollution on people. Plus, in terms of global pollution what we produce as a country is irrelevant, it is the goods that we buy and import that create the real pollution.

And yes, if millions of people plugged their EVs in at 6pm and we’re allowed to draw power at 6pm then the Grid would have a problem but then the Grid isn’t going to allow that. The Grid will dictate that the bulk of EV charging occurs when they have a big excess capacity and an actual commercial requirement to find electricity buyers to help it be more efficient and that is when everyone is sleeping.

So, people won’t be charging their EV en masse when everyone in the country is awake but when they are asleep.

It is also pertinent to note that once we get millionsnof EVs on the road they will not be fully charging every day. The average daily car usage in the UK is just 9 miles. Most current car users are not filling up their petrol tanks to brimming every single day. Filling up for many is just chucking £10 in and for others it’s filling up once a week or fortnight.

And finally, if you have a massive, fully charged battery in your driveway, plugged into your house and you are not driving to Mogadishu in the morning why wouldn’t you power your house during peak hours with the cheap overnight electricity stored in your car than stupidly buy it from the Grid at peak prices?

So, once a brain has actually been engaged and the Doris Panic has subsided just what exactly is the actual problem facing the Grid with regards to the expansion of EV use?

DonkeyApple

35,152 posts

117 months

Wednesday 20th November
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Lets face it, some people like conventional, some people like weird. Today, you can have either depending on personal choice, which is terrific!

(And i'm struggling to think of which bits of the i3 design are "willfully" weird??

It has a carbon tub for low mass, high stiffness. It has aluminium front and rear subframes for assembly and easy crash replacement, The pillar-less doors, possible due to the ultra strong CF tub, save a large amount of mass because they mate together and hence you don't need a central pillar between them, the wheels are tall because they need to be narrow for low loss, so a tall profile elongates the contact patch to get good grip from the width, the battery is safely mounted below the floor in it's own crash structure, those two things mean you're going to have a "tall" kinda look to the thing as it's a relatively narrow body(to get a low frontal area). The body panels are all plastic and are just "hung" onto the body frame with velcro
(yes really) and some plastic locking fasteners. The interior is a (very good imo) attempt to bring space and light to the insides of a normally very boring cabin, the deep wndscreen allows the bonnet to flow into the roof (lower drag). Structural and partially structural glass allows the tailgate to be light yet simple.

Sure those design details wouldn't work if it were trying to be a low slung sports coupe, but it's not. It's (primarily) a city car, that just happens to be as fast as a lot of "sports" cars.........
The i3 May have marmite looks but as a car that seems to embrace EV power for the purpose of actual environmental benefit I think it’s arguably the best EV on sale. To me it is a genuine and credible step forward whereas just taking the shape of a traditional car, slapping a load of batteries in and a conventional interior and conventional everything else such as Carlos Fandango rubber isn’t exactly moving the game forward.

The big questions I have over the i3 is how long will a carbon shell last v a steel or aluminium one? Is there any significant advantage there? And how easy is it to upgrade the batteries as they degrade and superior ones become available?