A sportscar shouldn’t have...
Discussion
kiseca said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Coolbanana said:
An ICE!
Yep, I used to enjoy the sound and soul of a powerful ICE, a thunderous V8, a silky 6 cylinder with a dirty growl...but the purity of the EV has swayed me. I prefer it - no big noise polluting my fun, just the sensation of speed.
I tried to go back to manual, hated it, just felt like work for no reason. So for me, a pure sports car would have to be an EV now and I look forward to an Elise-type version in the future from Lotus - that, to me, will be the evolution of the sportscar and finding a new level of its essence.
You have ruined my morning now that I've read that! Yep, I used to enjoy the sound and soul of a powerful ICE, a thunderous V8, a silky 6 cylinder with a dirty growl...but the purity of the EV has swayed me. I prefer it - no big noise polluting my fun, just the sensation of speed.
I tried to go back to manual, hated it, just felt like work for no reason. So for me, a pure sports car would have to be an EV now and I look forward to an Elise-type version in the future from Lotus - that, to me, will be the evolution of the sportscar and finding a new level of its essence.
So much wrong in only two paragraphs for me. The noise and swapping cogs myself are two of the most enjoyable things about driving imo.
To me, it makes ICE feel obsolete, and while there can be fun in listening to an engine (not many, but some) and there can be satisfaction from swapping cogs (again, some gearboxes are lovely to use, others aren't), I'm sure there is also a lot of satisfaction to be had from smoothly operating a steam engine.
If you like instant and eager accelerator response, good steering feedback, excellent handling, EV has a lot more potential than ICE. There's lots more scope to put the weight where you want it, much more room to put good suspension in when it isn't fighting for room with a bulky V8 or V12 and gearbox. And EVs give a new, much more literal, and much more instant, quality to that oft used term "electric throttle response".
Sound is missing but with EV you can make it sound like a Tie Fighter if you want. So many ICE cars now are pumping fake sound into the cabin anyway...
Yes, I enjoy using a nice gearbox and listening to a tuneful petrol engine, but those aren't the only things I enjoy about driving, they aren't even the primary things I enjoy about driving, and so for me at least the pros outweigh the cons with EV.
We all get different pleasures from driving and I accept that for others, the balance tips the other way, but that's just my personal thing. I get it, and I don't see inevitable gloom in an electric future, or more to the point, I think whatever will make driving less fun in the future, automated safety systems, stricter policing possibly directly by the car's electronics, more and more crowding, these will all happen regardless of how the car is powered.
I bought a Cup 250 this year and I will keep it forever, because I don't think it'll be very long before nothing like it is available anymore, at least certainly not without speed limiters, black boxes and the like.
Electric SUVs and saloons are the future, with the odd hypercar thrown in at monster money. Lightweight and driver-focussed is the past, not the future. People mostly don't want the compromises that go alongside being genuinely good to drive.
I would be the first to state that a Caterham is definitely not for everyone, but given quite a few descriptions here, about what a sportscar shouldn't (or should) have. It would seem that a Caterham type car is going to fit the description the closest.
Some say that any petrol head worth his salt should at least once have, or have driven an Alfa, but I would add to this that they should also try driving a Caterham. Many will not like it, but they should at least have a go in one, at least once (assuming of course they are able to fit in one !
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Some say that any petrol head worth his salt should at least once have, or have driven an Alfa, but I would add to this that they should also try driving a Caterham. Many will not like it, but they should at least have a go in one, at least once (assuming of course they are able to fit in one !
.Baldchap said:
The problem is, people here described the 'ultimate' car and it was basically the GT86, but nobody bought it. Nobody buys the Elise or Exige. People wouldn't buy the electric Elise either. I'm pretty confident, even if they managed to get the weight down, nobody will buy one.
I bought a Cup 250 this year and I will keep it forever, because I don't think it'll be very long before nothing like it is available anymore, at least certainly not without speed limiters, black boxes and the like.
Electric SUVs and saloons are the future, with the odd hypercar thrown in at monster money. Lightweight and driver-focussed is the past, not the future. People mostly don't want the compromises that go alongside being genuinely good to drive.
I agree, I think that is the biggest problem. The sportscar market was never big, and to be fair the MX5 and Boxster / Cayman seem to be able to make a success of it, but good stories are rare now.I bought a Cup 250 this year and I will keep it forever, because I don't think it'll be very long before nothing like it is available anymore, at least certainly not without speed limiters, black boxes and the like.
Electric SUVs and saloons are the future, with the odd hypercar thrown in at monster money. Lightweight and driver-focussed is the past, not the future. People mostly don't want the compromises that go alongside being genuinely good to drive.
I'd also throw the Giulia in that mix. Best driver's sedan in its segment but they can't sell them.
On the electric Elise, I wonder how well the Tesla Roadster would do if it had been released now rather than as their first product, now that the brand has a following?
kiseca said:
I agree, I think that is the biggest problem. The sportscar market was never big, and to be fair the MX5 and Boxster / Cayman seem to be able to make a success of it, but good stories are rare now.
I'd also throw the Giulia in that mix. Best driver's sedan in its segment but they can't sell them.
On the electric Elise, I wonder how well the Tesla Roadster would do if it had been released now rather than as their first product, now that the brand has a following?
The trouble is the Boxster now has a weight problem, and the 4 cylinder lump takes away from what made it decent in the first place. You may as well go and buy a convertable 'x' turbo charged car in comparison. I'd also throw the Giulia in that mix. Best driver's sedan in its segment but they can't sell them.
On the electric Elise, I wonder how well the Tesla Roadster would do if it had been released now rather than as their first product, now that the brand has a following?
JuanGandini said:
Cheap budget / run flat tyres
This!!
Really don’t get why you can’t check out any list of classified ads, and see dozens of offerings of cheap, mismatched, and inappropriate tyres.
It’s where everything begins, for a fast and fun car, and no amount of investment of design or engineering will overcome deficiencies in rubber.
It’s the number one indicator, for me, of whether a car has been looked after and maintained properly.
Baldchap said:
The problem is, people here described the 'ultimate' car and it was basically the GT86, but nobody bought it. Nobody buys the Elise or Exige. People wouldn't buy the electric Elise either. I'm pretty confident, even if they managed to get the weight down, nobody will buy one.
I bought a Cup 250 this year and I will keep it forever, because I don't think it'll be very long before nothing like it is available anymore, at least certainly not without speed limiters, black boxes and the like.
Electric SUVs and saloons are the future, with the odd hypercar thrown in at monster money. Lightweight and driver-focussed is the past, not the future. People mostly don't want the compromises that go alongside being genuinely good to drive.
The biggest problem with the GT86 was the engine. I’d have been in the queue for one if there had been a sonorous and rewarding engine under the bonnet. The S2000 engine maybe, or even a tuneable offering like the 2.0 in the old MX5. The NA Subaru boxer has never been a good engine, and inappropriate for the application. I bought a Cup 250 this year and I will keep it forever, because I don't think it'll be very long before nothing like it is available anymore, at least certainly not without speed limiters, black boxes and the like.
Electric SUVs and saloons are the future, with the odd hypercar thrown in at monster money. Lightweight and driver-focussed is the past, not the future. People mostly don't want the compromises that go alongside being genuinely good to drive.
Elise or exige could have been contenders, however the Evora should have been the lotus for the daily driving sports car market. Still a big fan, however the price was at least £5k-£10k over where it should have been pitched.
To all those who advocate that daily driving a sports car should come with a level of masochistic suffering, and a wardrobe full of ski wear for the winter, this is the 21st century. This may have been the case in the 1960s, however just because MG cars were intrinsically a bit s
t, isn't a reason to scoff at weather proof roofs, power steering, abs or air conditioning. Also worth remembering that Elises were a great sales success for Lotus in the car's early years. They're getting on now though. Current Series 3 cars just look like facelifted Series 2s, which first hit the road in 2001.
I would think the Elise's current sales performance (if it is actually slow, I haven't checked) is more a reflection on the car's lack of visible development rather than a reflection on the sportscar market in general. The new MX5 seems to be a big hit, I see lots of those, and even the new Boxster doesn't seem to have suffered in the market from the loss of the flat 6.
Sportscars don't need to evolve as quickly as family cars, but they do still need a fresh look from time to time. Particularly ones that sell in relatively high volume for a sportscar.
I would think the Elise's current sales performance (if it is actually slow, I haven't checked) is more a reflection on the car's lack of visible development rather than a reflection on the sportscar market in general. The new MX5 seems to be a big hit, I see lots of those, and even the new Boxster doesn't seem to have suffered in the market from the loss of the flat 6.
Sportscars don't need to evolve as quickly as family cars, but they do still need a fresh look from time to time. Particularly ones that sell in relatively high volume for a sportscar.
kiseca said:
Also worth remembering that Elises were a great sales success for Lotus in the car's early years. They're getting on now though. Current Series 3 cars just look like facelifted Series 2s, which first hit the road in 2001.
I would think the Elise's current sales performance (if it is actually slow, I haven't checked) is more a reflection on the car's lack of visible development rather than a reflection on the sportscar market in general. The new MX5 seems to be a big hit, I see lots of those, and even the new Boxster doesn't seem to have suffered in the market from the loss of the flat 6.
Sportscars don't need to evolve as quickly as family cars, but they do still need a fresh look from time to time. Particularly ones that sell in relatively high volume for a sportscar.
Can’t quote figures, however weren’t S1 Elise’s a bit of a bargain when they were first introduced? More than hot hatch money, however not worlds away??I would think the Elise's current sales performance (if it is actually slow, I haven't checked) is more a reflection on the car's lack of visible development rather than a reflection on the sportscar market in general. The new MX5 seems to be a big hit, I see lots of those, and even the new Boxster doesn't seem to have suffered in the market from the loss of the flat 6.
Sportscars don't need to evolve as quickly as family cars, but they do still need a fresh look from time to time. Particularly ones that sell in relatively high volume for a sportscar.
The current Elise is bigger and serious cash, and has morphed away from the S1 simplicity and appeal
mat205125 said:
Can’t quote figures, however weren’t S1 Elise’s a bit of a bargain when they were first introduced? More than hot hatch money, however not worlds away??
The current Elise is bigger and serious cash, and has morphed away from the S1 simplicity and appeal
My S1 was £27.5k in 2000, circa £45.5k now (using BoE inflation calculator), they weren't that cheap.The current Elise is bigger and serious cash, and has morphed away from the S1 simplicity and appeal
They aren't as simple, agree, that is predominantly due to safety regulations.
The biggest barrier to Elise sales is that residuals are amazing and the current car isn't significantly different to the S1, so why would an owner change?
I spent 4 days at Hethel doing the Lotus License track days and I have newfound appreciation for the capabilities of these little cars. They're amazing things.
I spent 4 days at Hethel doing the Lotus License track days and I have newfound appreciation for the capabilities of these little cars. They're amazing things.
Pan Pan Pan said:
It would seem that a Caterham type car is going to fit the description the closest.
Only if that description is 50 years out of date.mat205125 said:
To all those who advocate that daily driving a sports car should come with a level of masochistic suffering, and a wardrobe full of ski wear for the winter, this is the 21st century. This may have been the case in the 1960s, however just because MG cars were intrinsically a bit st, isn't a reason to scoff at weather proof roofs, power steering, abs or air conditioning.
^^ This.t, isn't a reason to scoff at weather proof roofs, power steering, abs or air conditioning. There's a difference between what precludes a car from being a sports car (e.g. non-sporty versions of the same model being available), and what's not desirable in a sports car (e.g. FWD).
An example of the former would be a Focus RS, and an example of the latter would be a Mk2 Lotus Elan...
An example of the former would be a Focus RS, and an example of the latter would be a Mk2 Lotus Elan...
Hmm!
That was interesting.
Apart from the obvious tendency for everyone to favour the car they own, the clear problem is that some believe that a sports car is a pseudonym for any fast modern car with oodles of electronics and creature comforts, whereas the opposing team believe that the traditional value should apply of a stripped out engine on wheel, with just enough comfort to get by.
The correct answer is probably somewhere in between, so everyone can be disappointed.
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That was interesting.
Apart from the obvious tendency for everyone to favour the car they own, the clear problem is that some believe that a sports car is a pseudonym for any fast modern car with oodles of electronics and creature comforts, whereas the opposing team believe that the traditional value should apply of a stripped out engine on wheel, with just enough comfort to get by.
The correct answer is probably somewhere in between, so everyone can be disappointed.
.Traditionally, sports cars require a degree of masochism, discomfort, inconvenience and eccentricity. The 'sport' is putting the driving experience above creature comforts and practicality.
That said, as much as I enjoy driving my Caterham, I do appreciate the climate control and heated seats that my MX5 offers.........
That said, as much as I enjoy driving my Caterham, I do appreciate the climate control and heated seats that my MX5 offers.........
Mort7 said:
That said, as much as I enjoy driving my Caterham, I do appreciate the climate control and heated seats that my MX5 offers.........
I'm with you there - my Caterham will be paired with a Fiesta ST. The commute needs heated seats, a roof, a radio, voice activation etc.Edited by Gulf7 on Friday 6th December 16:33
Gulf7 said:
Mort7 said:
That said, as much as I enjoy driving my Caterham, I do appreciate the climate control and heated seats that my MX5 offers.........
I'm with you there - my Caterham will be paired with a Fiesta ST. The commute needs heated seats, a roof, a radio, voice activation etc.Edited by Gulf7 on Friday 6th December 16:33
Steering that is maybe a bit heavy at parking speed, but is precise, reasonably quick, and full of feel and feedback. It may feel slightly more nervous than average because it doesn't have deadspot around the straight ahead position. You tweak the wheel, the car responds as though you meant to do that, it doesn't smother the input or take the edge off as though assuming it was accidental. A view that is compromised by the shape and layout of the car so it always looks a bit different. A sharply raked windscreen, curves or bulges over the front wheels or maybe a power bulge, a low roofline.
A little bit of relative difficulty getting in and out, because it's a sporstcar so keeping the weight down low is more important than easy ingress or egress.
A clutch pedal or action that may be a bit heavier than normal but again you can feel the biting point clearly. And may be a bit sharp for a smooth pullaway but allows slick shifts between gears as fast as you like.
A ride that might be a bit fidgety but you know what each wheel is doing.
That was, to an extent, what disappointed me in the brief time I had in a Ferrari 360. The seating position was low but once in the car, all the controls just felt ordinary. It was a semi-auto so there wasn't even a traditional Ferrari gearbox to master. All the major control actions were unremarkable and not much removed from the Golf I'd driven earlier that day.
You could feel the quality behind all the parts when you got going, the feedback in the steering was there, the engine response and noise when winding it up was good, the balance felt about perfect, but as soon as you stopped leaning on the car, all those clues vanished. To me, there was little in it that was uniquely Ferrari. It was just a very well sorted, enjoyable car. And that was a 360. Nowadays it's considered relatively raw compared to its successors.
They can engineer all those compromises out of the car and still keep both the ability and road feedback, but as long as they aren't actually hindering the ability to enjoy the car, I don't think they should. The car should feel different, focussed, compromised somewhat, all the time. I think Gordon Murray had an idea similar to this when he designed the F1. Remove the compromises that hurt the driving ability, like offset pedals, not enough room for the driver to be comfortable, controls so heavy they can't be used effectively, but don't refine it so much that it just feels like every other car. Don't go as far as Honda did with the NSX. Because then, why not just be in a well sorted and more practical sedan?
rockin said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
It would seem that a Caterham type car is going to fit the description the closest.
Only if that description is 50 years out of date.mat205125 said:
To all those who advocate that daily driving a sports car should come with a level of masochistic suffering, and a wardrobe full of ski wear for the winter, this is the 21st century. This may have been the case in the 1960s, however just because MG cars were intrinsically a bit st, isn't a reason to scoff at weather proof roofs, power steering, abs or air conditioning.
^^ This.t, isn't a reason to scoff at weather proof roofs, power steering, abs or air conditioning. Of course, some weak wieners wont be able to handle a car that doesn't have any driver aids doing all the driving work for them, but never mind, they can go on kidding themselves, they are a driving god, when they would actually be useless if put into a real car, and not a computer on wheels. I wonder if they actually kid themselves that they are super drivers, when really it is just the cars computer that is actually doing all the work?
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