A sportscar shouldn’t have...

A sportscar shouldn’t have...

Author
Discussion

blueg33

35,590 posts

223 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
donkmeister said:
I've just looked at your garage... You have an Atom, no tow-vehicle, and hate feeling nice on a drive.

You're just a sadist, aren't you! wink
Do you mean masochist?

Composite Guru

2,205 posts

202 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
Fort Jefferson said:
Composite Guru said:
DSG type gearbox. Manual only.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

The times I hear "I've got a drivers car" No mate, it 'aint even got a fking clutch pedal.
Eliminates pretty much every Ferrari since 2005. So I’m not entirely sure that’s a good criteria.
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Composite Guru said:
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.
I agree that manuals would be good to watch, but driving an F1 car is still a very difficult thing to do.

bcr5784

7,103 posts

144 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Composite Guru said:
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.
Formula one drivers wouldn't miss shifts any more than they do at the moment. All boxes would be sequential. They are more likely to miss a brake bias or diff adjustment for a particular corner (which might change each lap as the tyres wear) than missing a gearchange. Changing gear is (or still would be) the easy bit of driving an F1 car.

Composite Guru

2,205 posts

202 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
Composite Guru said:
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.
I agree that manuals would be good to watch, but driving an F1 car is still a very difficult thing to do.
Senna and the old school managed to do it!!
No power steering either. Proper talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFqsWWG1qE

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Composite Guru said:
DoubleD said:
Composite Guru said:
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.
I agree that manuals would be good to watch, but driving an F1 car is still a very difficult thing to do.
Senna and the old school managed to do it!!
No power steering either. Proper talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFqsWWG1qE
Yep, but he didnt have as many settings to change as they do now. Different times and different problems faced by the drivers.

The current cars are very difficult to drive and the grid has many very talented drivers on it.

Miserablegit

Original Poster:

4,013 posts

108 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
Good start - but note that some of the new auto paddle shift torque converter boxes shift faster than twin clutch boxes. Also you havent got a score for a robotised manual eg Ferrari F1 box.

But I like it, if I have time tonight Ill turn it into a spread sheet then we can test it smile

Just did a trial run using these

evora f360 MG midget ferrari 488 911 audi a5 d

The only ones less than 15.5 were the Midget and the A5 diesel (thats because the A5 has a negative number)

Evora 400 - 18.86666667
Ferrari 360 - 18.93333333
Mg Midget - 5.866666667
Ferrari 488 - 28.64285714
991 s - 39.85714286
A5 3.0 tdi - -0.993243243

So Midget = sports car, Evora and 360 nearly sports cars, 488 and 911 definitely not, A5 misses by a mile but skewed


Edited by blueg33 on Tuesday 10th December 18:03
Clearly some tweaks are needed as has been shown.
Perhaps:

Points for the no. of seats less than 4
1 point for pop up headlamps
1 point for mid-engine
possibly move the ratio down a point?


MikeM6

4,985 posts

101 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Fort Jefferson said:
Composite Guru said:
DSG type gearbox. Manual only.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This.

The times I hear "I've got a drivers car" No mate, it 'aint even got a fking clutch pedal.
I used to think like that. I do have a driver's car, not a 'Sports Car' by definition, but it has no clutch pedal due to it having a sequential robotised manual.

I may have bought a manual one if it were an option, but I have actually grown to love the flawed box I have that takes a bit of skill to use right. It is no DSG or Automatic I can assure you.

Point is, a clutch pedal is not a factor in whether a car is a driver's car or not.


mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
DoubleD said:
Composite Guru said:
That's because F1.

I wish F1 would go back to manuals as it separates the men from the boys.
Imagine what the racing would be like if the leader mis shifts and loses a place. It would shake things up a bit and make better racing.
Its just like driving a computer game pressing a button.
I agree that manuals would be good to watch, but driving an F1 car is still a very difficult thing to do.
In the real world, going back to manual gearboxes wouldn't add anything to the racing for the spectator.

A race sequential gearbox, and a paddle activated road car DSG or automatic gearbox isn't the same thing anyway.

In both instances (road and race), the modern gearboxes add a level of reliability and drivability that a manual shift couldn't. Looking back at the Prodrive development of actuated shifting in the Subaru rally cars, they started with paddles that moved the H pattern shifter, and after the teething troubles were eradicated, saw improvements in reliability that made going back to a manual inconceivable.

With a computer controlled and actuated shift, the risk of over-revving on downshifts are all but eliminated .... manually actuated sequential shifts (similar in concept to a motorbike shift) can still allow drivers to over-rev, as there is no computer validation of the shift request.

For a road car supercar, one of the main benefits is that the control of the clutch is removed from the driver. Whilst in single clutch applications this isn't always ideal, and can make driving in traffic a pain, especially in older systems, overall this works better in the real world ........ a millionaire rapper or his trophy wife, with no understanding of mechanics or driving, would destroy a clutch and flywheel in a manual Lambo, within minutes of wheel-spinning out of the LA showroom.

Tight control over the shifting and clutch actuation allows designers to engineer cars with smaller flywheels and clutches, as well as protecting the cranks and bearings from the abuse that a gorilla in a manual will inflict.

As much as I, and we, love the manual gearbox, we have to accept that its days are numbered, and its really a purist treat. Sure it ruins an Alfa 4C or the Fiat MX5, however is an understandable choice to make in a high-power & torque car like the BMW Z4/Supra.



Pan Pan Pan

9,777 posts

110 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
1430 said:
A sports car shouldn't have a driver that is old and overweight. Nobody on pistonheads should own one because you're negativly affecting the power to weight ratio and your reflexs are slow.
It also shouldn't have a driver who is young, and thinks they know it all, (especially one who is might be a victim of (the increasingly common) child/youth obesity , when really they do not, Which would seem to be borne out, by the age groups that have the most accidents.

Olivera

7,068 posts

238 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
Formula one drivers wouldn't miss shifts any more than they do at the moment. All boxes would be sequential. They are more likely to miss a brake bias or diff adjustment for a particular corner (which might change each lap as the tyres wear) than missing a gearchange. Changing gear is (or still would be) the easy bit of driving an F1 car.
Don't be ridiculous, due to the speed of F1 cars they would be changing gear very frequently and quickly - it would be easy to miss a shift, or lock the rear axle due to an inadequate heel-and-toe.

mat205125

17,790 posts

212 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Olivera said:
Don't be ridiculous, due to the speed of F1 cars they would be changing gear very frequently and quickly - it would be easy to miss a shift, or lock the rear axle due to an inadequate heel-and-toe.
There'd be mechanical slipper clutches to avoid the latter.

bcr5784

7,103 posts

144 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Olivera said:
Don't be ridiculous, due to the speed of F1 cars they would be changing gear very frequently and quickly - it would be easy to miss a shift, or lock the rear axle due to an inadequate heel-and-toe.
I think you underestimate how good even second division F1 drivers are. How often do you see Moto GP riders miss a shift? - they face the same sort of iissues.

Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 12th December 14:52

talksthetorque

10,815 posts

134 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
The F1 drivers would either adapt, or get dropped.
The engineers would react to get round the issues.IF the drivers are frequently trashing boxes, I'm sure you could use sensors/mechanics to block a downshift if wheelspeed was too high.
But this would only be done should it be thought of as a great enough risk to add weight to a car doing so.

pyruse

61 posts

60 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
I think your formula needs a bit of work:

My Honda CRV (definitely *not* a sports car)

Seating: (shouldn't this be higher numbers for fewer seats? so 7 - number of seats or something)?
No. of seats =4

Gearbox
Auto gearbox -1 = 3

Construction Material
Steel -1 = 2

Mass
1.5t 0 = 2

Driven wheels
Fwd (most of the time) +1 = 3

Motive power
Petrol +4 = 7

Electronic malarkey
Abs 0

Engine layout
4 pot +2 = 9

Total all of that up and then divide the BHP per tonne by that figure.
BHP = 150, wieght =1.5 tonnes, so 100 BHP/ton

100/9 = 11.11

Yay!

Olivera

7,068 posts

238 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
There'd be mechanical slipper clutches to avoid the latter.
If that's the case then then whole proposal doesn't make any sense. Re-introducing a manual gated gearbox but with a slipper clutch (removing the manual heel-and-toe) is contradictory.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
bcr5784 said:
Olivera said:
Don't be ridiculous, due to the speed of F1 cars they would be changing gear very frequently and quickly - it would be easy to miss a shift, or lock the rear axle due to an inadequate heel-and-toe.
I think you underestimate how good even second division F1 drivers are. How often do you see Moto GP riders miss a shift? - they face the same sort of iissues.

Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 12th December 14:52
Modern F1 drivers are OK but no better than other racers.

Cotty

39,390 posts

283 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
Fort Jefferson said:
The times I hear "I've got a drivers car" No mate, it 'aint even got a fking clutch pedal.
I have a drivers car a BMW E30, but its an auto getmecoat

bcr5784

7,103 posts

144 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
Modern F1 drivers are OK but no better than other racers.
While I'd accept there are probably a lot of drivers outside F1 who are as TALENTED as those inside (because, with very rare exceptions, you need a lot of money to get there) , the number of drivers who would actually beat the current crop of F1 drivers in (say) F3 or F4 is vanishing small - if you look at those who have actually made it to F1, they have all been highly successful in lower formuli.


Edited by bcr5784 on Thursday 12th December 16:53

DoubleD

22,154 posts

107 months

Thursday 12th December 2019
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
F1 drivers are OK but no better than other racers.
F1 drivers come up through the lower formulas 1st, if they arent good enough in the lower formulas they wont make it into F1 (apart from a couple of pay drivers).