RE: 2020 Jaguar F-Type revealed!
Discussion
There seems so much negativity towards the F-Type updates here, which I find quite odd considering that they are clearly just refreshes to help maintain sales before the new one arrives in three years time. And all the moaning about the V6 not being available seems to miss the point that an inline 6 is coming to replace it soon according to the article.
A quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
A quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
JuanGandini said:
There seems so much negativity towards the F-Type updates here, which I find quite odd considering that they are clearly just refreshes to help maintain sales before the new one arrives in three years time. And all the moaning about the V6 not being available seems to miss the point that an inline 6 is coming to replace it soon according to the article.
A quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
Agreed particularly when they’ve just lopped 22k off the price of the v8 R and reintroduced it as a rwd. I had a 2015 v8s cabrio F Type with 485bhp and it was a hootA quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
I’ve spent a bit of time in a couple of SVR’s over recent years and I have to say the F Type, in V8 form, is a lovely, amiable thing. I think it has its own place in the market really, more of a modern but slightly old-school muscle car rather than flash and glitzy.
There are plenty of people who may prefer that, particularly if keenly priced..
There are plenty of people who may prefer that, particularly if keenly priced..
bennno said:
JuanGandini said:
There seems so much negativity towards the F-Type updates here, which I find quite odd considering that they are clearly just refreshes to help maintain sales before the new one arrives in three years time. And all the moaning about the V6 not being available seems to miss the point that an inline 6 is coming to replace it soon according to the article.
A quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
Agreed particularly when they’ve just lopped 22k off the price of the v8 R and reintroduced it as a rwd. I had a 2015 v8s cabrio F Type with 485bhp and it was a hootA quick Google shows me that since 2013, 911s outsold F Types 3 to 1 in Europe and US combined (I couldn't see any figures for China). I can understand why - range of engines/performance/price, versatility, practicality, efficiency and so on. Jaguar doesn't have the money to compete with a bohemoth like VAG, so they've done well to even create a viable alternative.
If I had the money, I'd consider a V8 F-Type over a 911 in the UK - it's an historic British brand and the V8 makes a lovely noise. The Porsche would be the better car in almost all facets, but I'd wager that I'd be on the receiving end of far more 'Nescafe salutes' than in the Jag.
edit - no they haven't. The R model is £97k, similar to before.
[/quote]
Have they knocked £22k off the 550/575bhp V8? I thought it was the 450bhp that was £22k cheaper?
edit - no they haven't. The R model is £97k, similar to before.
[/quote]
New R is essentially the same as previous SVR version without the SVO association so they have dropped the price by the thick end of £22k.
Like R8, the F-Type does look more exotic/special than Cayman and 911 bar the GT cars and that will count for a lot in a market where image is often more important than outright driveability. I do hope this livens up sales for Jag.
bennno said:
But it’s not, I think you’ve missed the point a GT4 is about £83-£85k entry level with basic spec - if you could buy one. The new V8 supercharged is £69k loaded with kit and dealers wiling to negotiate - clever repositioning from Jaguar.
Even better is that it’s a remap and a pulley away from 650bhp+
A bare bones entry level GT4 is £75,348.00 (allegedly) and despite the power deficit is about 300kg lighter than an F-type.Even better is that it’s a remap and a pulley away from 650bhp+
Edited by bennno on Tuesday 3rd December 13:55
However, I concede that you make a very valid point regarding the price and power difference but I still maintain that a set of useable, child friendly rear seats mean that for many like myself the f-type just isn't something I consider a competitor to the 911.
nunpuncher said:
I don't understand why the 911 is it's competition. Size? Power? Weight? Price? A 911 is a very different proposition as I can take my kids to school in one.
If I didn't have kids then a Cayman GT4 is a far more attractive and cheaper proposition than the Jag.
Walks into a Porsche dealership. If I didn't have kids then a Cayman GT4 is a far more attractive and cheaper proposition than the Jag.
"Hello. Can I buy a new GT4 please?"
Dealer. "No"
Walks into a Jaguar dealership
"Hello. Can I buy a new F-Type please?"
Dealer "Yes"
So, unless you buy lots of Porsches, you ain't getting a GT4. Unless you're talking about new V second hand? Which is pointless.
NJJ said:
New R is essentially the same as previous SVR version without the SVO association so they have dropped the price by the thick end of £22k.
Like R8, the F-Type does look more exotic/special than Cayman and 911 bar the GT cars and that will count for a lot in a market where image is often more important than outright driveability. I do hope this livens up sales for Jag.
What 'SVO association'? All SVO (and M, AMG, RS, etc.) mean nowadays is a badge on the back and effectively a trim level. They're all planned and developed together. What JLR mean is "we couldn't sell this car at £100k+ so we either had to risk cheapening the SVO/SVR moniker or downgrade it to an R".Like R8, the F-Type does look more exotic/special than Cayman and 911 bar the GT cars and that will count for a lot in a market where image is often more important than outright driveability. I do hope this livens up sales for Jag.
As for exotic and special, why then, is the F-Type comprehensively outsold by the 911 despite undercutting it on price?
stickleback123 said:
RacerMike said:
23 years since the original XK, but the F Type was an evolution of the X150 XK which launched 12 years ago. The chassis in the original 96-06 XK was basically an updated XJS chassis with carry over suspension. The X150 was the then new aluminium monocoque which eventually went on to become the X351 XJ after being fairly substantially modified.
Whilst I agree that the F Type is a bit old school now, it’s a little unfair to try and suggest it’s underpinnings are any less old than its competition. Really the 991 and 981 series Porsche’s are heavily revised 997 and 987 chassis architecture with carry over suspension, and I suspect there’s a lot in common with the 992 too.
For me what the F Type lacks is a modern interior and modern engines. I suspect if the interior had been fully refreshed with infotainment equivalent to Porsche, there’d be less complaints on here that it was old fashioned.
The X150 chassis is clearly derived from the 2003 X350 - they use the same suspension components (air struts excluded).Whilst I agree that the F Type is a bit old school now, it’s a little unfair to try and suggest it’s underpinnings are any less old than its competition. Really the 991 and 981 series Porsche’s are heavily revised 997 and 987 chassis architecture with carry over suspension, and I suspect there’s a lot in common with the 992 too.
For me what the F Type lacks is a modern interior and modern engines. I suspect if the interior had been fully refreshed with infotainment equivalent to Porsche, there’d be less complaints on here that it was old fashioned.
I'm not sure the X100 did carry over the suspension setup of the XJ-S; it had a more conventional XJ40 style single damper setup at the rear for a start. Did it have the same ridiculous short wheelbased as the XJS?
The XJS derived DB7 retained the giveaway double dampers right until the end of course. Now that really was a lash-up of a car!
And to use my point again about Porsche. Here's a 996 GT3 front lower wishbone:
Here's one for a 987 Cayman:
Here's one for a 991 C2:
And here's one for a 718:
Whether a car is any good has very little to do with what it's based on and everything to do with it's tuning. Plus, 90% of consumers don't care what's underneath. They care about Apple Car Play and whether it's 'nice' to drive.
JxJ Jr. said:
NJJ said:
New R is essentially the same as previous SVR version without the SVO association so they have dropped the price by the thick end of £22k.
Like R8, the F-Type does look more exotic/special than Cayman and 911 bar the GT cars and that will count for a lot in a market where image is often more important than outright driveability. I do hope this livens up sales for Jag.
What 'SVO association'? All SVO (and M, AMG, RS, etc.) mean nowadays is a badge on the back and effectively a trim level. They're all planned and developed together. What JLR mean is "we couldn't sell this car at £100k+ so we either had to risk cheapening the SVO/SVR moniker or downgrade it to an R".Like R8, the F-Type does look more exotic/special than Cayman and 911 bar the GT cars and that will count for a lot in a market where image is often more important than outright driveability. I do hope this livens up sales for Jag.
As for exotic and special, why then, is the F-Type comprehensively outsold by the 911 despite undercutting it on price?
As said earlier, I like them a lot. They’re really easy to live with and really rather relaxing. V8 in no way slow but good old fashioned noise and urge.
ettore said:
It’s been a profitable car and volumes have been close to projections (unlike other Jaguars..). Refresh hopefully will see it profitably through time replacement with keen pricing.
Has profit been close to projections though? Cutting such a large amount off the top-end price is going to reduce average selling price, suggesting actual profits will be lower than projected. Add to that, was the 4-cyl car originally planned, as it seemed to come out very late?JxJ Jr. said:
ettore said:
It’s been a profitable car and volumes have been close to projections (unlike other Jaguars..). Refresh hopefully will see it profitably through time replacement with keen pricing.
Has profit been close to projections though? Cutting such a large amount off the top-end price is going to reduce average selling price, suggesting actual profits will be lower than projected. Add to that, was the 4-cyl car originally planned, as it seemed to come out very late?Oilchange said:
Almost as if Porsche owners have to come out if the woodwork to justify their purchases. Sad.
Can’t we just admire a pretty Jag for what it is...
I'd much rather buy a British sports car and if brand meant a lot to me I'd choose a Jaguar over a Porsche every day of the week. I love Jag's ingenuity and cadish, rule bending charm but every time you step out of your (insert anything) and drive a 911 you just realise again how much better an experience the 911 is. Can’t we just admire a pretty Jag for what it is...
The cabin quality, seat comfort and sound insulation make the 911 feel as comfortable as an XKR or big saloon over a long drive but if you up the pace and give it hell it just completely changes character. There's no car that comes to mind that I'd prefer to be in to drive big miles at speed. The body control, the power of the brakes and the response/torque delivery of the engine are second to none. The car feels small and agile on the road, it does exactly what you ask of it and before long it feels like an extension of your body. You wear it like a suit.
I've preferred many aspects of many cars I've owned and driven. Porsche are often beaten on cabin quality, engine sound, driver space and even handling but as a complete package no other car I've driven puts all those elements together better.
aaron_2000 said:
Court_S said:
I do think the interior could have have done with a bit more of an update but as another poster said, they just don’t have the cash.
Are JLR really in that bad a situation? Having said all that, there has been £500m investment from government and I believe BMW are up for sharing tech and production costs and they finally have the Defender and it could actually be made properly in Slovakia..
Compared to VW group and Porsche, despite a huge fine and their own problems, compare the money available to Porsche over Jaguar and it's like comparing a multi-millionaire with someone unemployed on benefits.
Autonomy said:
aaron_2000 said:
Court_S said:
I do think the interior could have have done with a bit more of an update but as another poster said, they just don’t have the cash.
Are JLR really in that bad a situation? Having said all that, there has been £500m investment from government and I believe BMW are up for sharing tech and production costs and they finally have the Defender and it could actually be made properly in Slovakia..
Compared to VW group and Porsche, despite a huge fine and their own problems, compare the money available to Porsche over Jaguar and it's like comparing a multi-millionaire with someone unemployed on benefits.
I won’t get into how right downs work, but it certainly wasn’t losing money in the real sense.
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