RE: Electric torque vectoring a reason to be cheerful
Discussion
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
And they'll very much need to. Because 1500kg for a Pikes Peak car is an absurd weight; Peugeot's 208 T16 weighed 875kg. No matter how trick the torque vectoring, you cannot hide weight during cornering, braking, and acceleration. The driver will always be able to feel it. Unless you're a straight line hero, a lighter car will always be nicer to drive, especially when the gulf between ICE and electric weight is so vast.
There are loads of examples of heavier cars being nicer to drive. A mk7 Golf drives much better than a mk3 Golf.Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
And they'll very much need to. Because 1500kg for a Pikes Peak car is an absurd weight; Peugeot's 208 T16 weighed 875kg. No matter how trick the torque vectoring, you cannot hide weight during cornering, braking, and acceleration. The driver will always be able to feel it. Unless you're a straight line hero, a lighter car will always be nicer to drive, especially when the gulf between ICE and electric weight is so vast.
There are loads of examples of heavier cars being nicer to drive. A mk7 Golf drives much better than a mk3 Golf.A 2 ton car, however well engineered it might be, will still be less enjoyable to drive than the same car if it were half a ton lighter. To claim otherwise displays a spectacular ignorance of both the laws of physics and of driving in general.
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
And they'll very much need to. Because 1500kg for a Pikes Peak car is an absurd weight; Peugeot's 208 T16 weighed 875kg. No matter how trick the torque vectoring, you cannot hide weight during cornering, braking, and acceleration. The driver will always be able to feel it. Unless you're a straight line hero, a lighter car will always be nicer to drive, especially when the gulf between ICE and electric weight is so vast.
There are loads of examples of heavier cars being nicer to drive. A mk7 Golf drives much better than a mk3 Golf.A 2 ton car, however well engineered it might be, will still be less enjoyable to drive than the same car if it were half a ton lighter. To claim otherwise displays a spectacular ignorance of both the laws of physics and of driving in general.
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
And they'll very much need to. Because 1500kg for a Pikes Peak car is an absurd weight; Peugeot's 208 T16 weighed 875kg. No matter how trick the torque vectoring, you cannot hide weight during cornering, braking, and acceleration. The driver will always be able to feel it. Unless you're a straight line hero, a lighter car will always be nicer to drive, especially when the gulf between ICE and electric weight is so vast.
There are loads of examples of heavier cars being nicer to drive. A mk7 Golf drives much better than a mk3 Golf.I think people struggle with the fact we need to take two steps back to take 100 forward !
The "enjoyability" of how a car drives is very much more to do with where the mass is carried than by how much mass there is in total!
I've driven light cars that are awful to drive (mk 1 nissan micra anyone....) and heavy cars that are brilliant to drive (BMW M3 F80) and i've driven light cars that are brilliant to drive (Elise) and heavy cars that are awful (Audi A6)
Do you spot the trend?
(HINT: the key words you will be looking for are Polar moment of interia, Centre of gravity height, and longitudinal mass distribution)
There is really only one significant effect that lightness can bring to driving enjoyment, and that is in terms of being able to run light enough to avoid power assisted driving controls , ie manual steering and manual brakes. But realistically, in 2019, no car on sale is really actually light enough to allow it to run without either of those features, and once you have them, what matters more is how they are tuned than the fact they are present.
Ultra light cars are also very difficult to make ride well, because they always suffer from a poor unsprung to sprung mass ratio unless so proper exotic parts are used (REF: ceramic discs on early elise etc)
Yes, all things being equal a lighter car is going to be more dynamic compared to a heavier car of the same fundamental layout, but that is certainly not an absolute rule
I've driven light cars that are awful to drive (mk 1 nissan micra anyone....) and heavy cars that are brilliant to drive (BMW M3 F80) and i've driven light cars that are brilliant to drive (Elise) and heavy cars that are awful (Audi A6)
Do you spot the trend?
(HINT: the key words you will be looking for are Polar moment of interia, Centre of gravity height, and longitudinal mass distribution)
There is really only one significant effect that lightness can bring to driving enjoyment, and that is in terms of being able to run light enough to avoid power assisted driving controls , ie manual steering and manual brakes. But realistically, in 2019, no car on sale is really actually light enough to allow it to run without either of those features, and once you have them, what matters more is how they are tuned than the fact they are present.
Ultra light cars are also very difficult to make ride well, because they always suffer from a poor unsprung to sprung mass ratio unless so proper exotic parts are used (REF: ceramic discs on early elise etc)
Yes, all things being equal a lighter car is going to be more dynamic compared to a heavier car of the same fundamental layout, but that is certainly not an absolute rule
J4CKO said:
Its only lardy now
Is it really that lardy even now?(all masses from google, so don't shoot me if they are slightly wrong!)
BMW 1 series: 1,360 kg
BMW i3: 1,200 kg
Nissan Leaf: 1,470 kg
Nissan: 1,380 kg
Tesla M3: 1,800 kg
BMW M3: 1,650 kg
Porsche Panamera: 1,900 kg
Porsche Taycan: 2,140 kg
Tesla Model X: 2,450 kg
Range Rover Sport: 2,450 kg
So yes, in most cases, the EV is a little bit heavier (unless you drive an i3 ;-) carbon tub for the win!!) but it's hardly that much different in the real world is it? I mean, can you tell the difference in handling when you have a passenger or two vs not having a passenger in a mid sized family saloon, because we are talking about the same difference here in most cases!
chelme said:
I understand the basis of the principal decision to move away from ICE to electric - the environment - and I respect it,
Not only that, but EV's, even at their current early stage of development, are already better cars than dino juice burners.chelme said:
however, I do not feel electric performance/sports/supercars make sense. As a luxury car, yes, it makes alot of sense, but I really can't get excited about electric sports cars.
It's a pity you're probably not near me, or I could let you have a visceral experience in my 'luxury' Tesla. I've done it to a number of previously sceptical petrolheads already and now they all want one.It's a pity you're probably not near me, or I could let you have a visceral experience in my 'luxury' Tesla. I've done it to a number of previously sceptical petrolheads already and now they all want one.
Driven the Tesla, it felt to me a lot like being on a train except you can steer it if you feel so inclined. Mass is low, central and largely imperceptible much of the time, treat it like you might a ‘sports car’ and it makes its presence felt. In fairness, I do want one, but not as a replacement to anything I’ve actually enjoyed owning or driving, more as the perfect solution to the two drawbacks of trains, they don’t leave from my house and I have to share them with other people. This is the age of the Tesla, this is the aaaaaage.......of the Tesla.
BlackandWhite said:
It's a pity you're probably not near me, or I could let you have a visceral experience in my 'luxury' Tesla. I've done it to a number of previously sceptical petrolheads already and now they all want one.
Driven the Tesla, it felt to me a lot like being on a train except you can steer it if you feel so inclined. Mass is low, central and largely imperceptible much of the time, treat it like you might a ‘sports car’ and it makes its presence felt. In fairness, I do want one, but not as a replacement to anything I’ve actually enjoyed owning or driving, more as the perfect solution to the two drawbacks of trains, they don’t leave from my house and I have to share them with other people. This is the age of the Tesla, this is the aaaaaage.......of the Tesla.
I'm curious tho' - have you driven any modern car? They are all heavy, have crashy suspension, and devoid of steering feel, carry far too much weight - a 3 series is 1.5 ton in it's lightest configuration (and is applauded for being 50KG lighter than before!).Driven the Tesla, it felt to me a lot like being on a train except you can steer it if you feel so inclined. Mass is low, central and largely imperceptible much of the time, treat it like you might a ‘sports car’ and it makes its presence felt. In fairness, I do want one, but not as a replacement to anything I’ve actually enjoyed owning or driving, more as the perfect solution to the two drawbacks of trains, they don’t leave from my house and I have to share them with other people. This is the age of the Tesla, this is the aaaaaage.......of the Tesla.
I test drive a Tesla Model 3 and to be fair, it felt the same as everything else - just a bit quicker!
If you're talking caterfields and lotus' then it's just a whole different spec and I'm sure if there were a dedicated sports car powered by electric it would steer just as well.
ash73 said:
article said:
It means the Taycan can be chucked to a 90-degree angle in a corner and if the driver stands on the accelerator pedal hard enough, it'll be pulled back into line.
The elephant in the room is why would anyone driving a sports car want this?If the so-called "horsepower war" is more or less over (you can get 500+ hp affordably nowadays and BEVs can be extraordinary in their unleashing of maximum torque), do we now look forward to something akin to an "agility war" in which cars endeavour to be ever-more able to carry speed through the curves, like a Scalextric brought to life?
unsprung said:
If the so-called "horsepower war" is more or less over (you can get 500+ hp affordably nowadays and BEVs can be extraordinary in their unleashing of maximum torque), do we now look forward to something akin to an "agility war" in which cars endeavour to be ever-more able to carry speed through the curves, like a Scalextric brought to life?
don't think so. that mindset has gone forever now suvs are taking over and traffic gets worse. comfort and convenience sells, and i can sympathise with that.i rarely see a Tesla making anything other than steady progress.
sidesauce said:
The answer is because batteries will come down in weight over time as their technologies develop thus using ICE won't necessarily make the weight argument a valid one in future. As it stands presently, many of the luxury ICE cars are not much lighter than their electric equivalents and they also have the disadvantage of a higher CoG than electric models too.
People talk like this as if batteries have only just been invented. Mobile phones have been driving battery technology for 20 plus years and the lithium cells used in cars are the culmination of that.I don't see battery packs halving in weight
Max_Torque said:
I've driven light cars that are awful to drive (mk 1 nissan micra anyone....) and heavy cars that are brilliant to drive (BMW M3 F80) and i've driven light cars that are brilliant to drive (Elise) and heavy cars that are awful (Audi A6)
Do you spot the trend?
So, RWD is better than FWD. Got it Do you spot the trend?
Edited by Bibbs on Sunday 8th December 23:54
172 said:
sidesauce said:
The answer is because batteries will come down in weight over time as their technologies develop thus using ICE won't necessarily make the weight argument a valid one in future. As it stands presently, many of the luxury ICE cars are not much lighter than their electric equivalents and they also have the disadvantage of a higher CoG than electric models too.
People talk like this as if batteries have only just been invented. Mobile phones have been driving battery technology for 20 plus years and the lithium cells used in cars are the culmination of that.I don't see battery packs halving in weight
Currently, there are several new battery technologies being developed which can possibly replace Li technology.
Edited by sidesauce on Monday 9th December 05:20
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
Kawasicki said:
spikyone said:
And they'll very much need to. Because 1500kg for a Pikes Peak car is an absurd weight; Peugeot's 208 T16 weighed 875kg. No matter how trick the torque vectoring, you cannot hide weight during cornering, braking, and acceleration. The driver will always be able to feel it. Unless you're a straight line hero, a lighter car will always be nicer to drive, especially when the gulf between ICE and electric weight is so vast.
There are loads of examples of heavier cars being nicer to drive. A mk7 Golf drives much better than a mk3 Golf.A 2 ton car, however well engineered it might be, will still be less enjoyable to drive than the same car if it were half a ton lighter. To claim otherwise displays a spectacular ignorance of both the laws of physics and of driving in general.
For larger, heavier cars this obviously isn’t the case. Take heavy luxury cars such as Range Rovers and you can see that despite the inefficiencies of Li batteries over dinosaur fuels the end result is a vehicle that is smoother, more refined, better off-road and better handling fullstop without additional weight penalties.
So in the current market place there are vehicles that can benefit from the more precise co trip that electric motors can offer over ICE but obviously there are many where their smallness and lightness makes petrol the more allround efficient option over a raft of basic metrics.
Time will change that. As we move forward more and more cars will be designed from the ground up to be EV and so more cars will fit in that upper zone of benefit. And eventually a new form of battery tech will come to market that will overnight mean that the smaller and lighter cars can to, or before then, society may come to terms with the fact that they only need very limited battery ranges and so the smaller cars will get substantially smaller battery packs and become much lighter.
CABC said:
ash73 said:
RemarkLima said:
Otherwise you'd be happy with 120 bhp Caterham ;-)
Who wouldn't be? Fab cars.make it 200 bhp and game over.
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