RE: McLaren 620R revealed as £250k GT4 clone

[JxJ Jr.]

TypeRTim said:

Here's a way to simplify for you:

Each Series is like a model, Sports Series being your Cayman, Super Series being your 911 and Ultimate Series being your on-offs like the Carrera GT or 918.

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

And before people go "yes, yes, but the engine in the super series has a different intake system...balsa wood con rod bolts...etc.", yes, we know, the same diesel engine that goes into something as mundane as a Fiesta and Focus also has differences in components but its the same basic thing. And yes, we know it costs money to develop new platforms, engines, etc and that may not be commercially viable, but pretending the same thing churned out again and again somehow makes up a range of different products is not convincing.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

JxJ Jr. said:

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

Like Ferrari then? Or Lamborghini?

[JxJ Jr.]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

JxJ Jr. said:

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

Like Ferrari then? Or Lamborghini?

Er...yes? Ferrari and Lamborghini's range are nicely delineated. Huracans are V10s, Avantadors are V12s, Within each model line up there are variants on the model. Ditto Ferrari.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

JxJ Jr. said:

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

Like Ferrari then? Or Lamborghini?

Er...yes? Ferrari and Lamborghini's range are nicely delineated. Huracans are V10s, Avantadors are V12s, Within each model line up there are variants on the model. Ditto Ferrari.

So the only differentiation is the engine? I thought you meant about the names being the same throughout, not the engines?

Ferrari have V8 or V12s in a couple of models and your bill doesn't quite fit there...?

[thelostboy]

Some Ferraris are front engined, some are mid engined.

You also wouldn't confuse a Huracan with an Aventador.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

thelostboy said:

Some Ferraris are front engined, some are mid engined.

You also wouldn't confuse a Huracan with an Aventador.

I think the 720S and 570S look as different as the Huracan does to the Aventador...

[JxJ Jr.]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

So the only differentiation is the engine? I thought you meant about the names being the same throughout, not the engines?

Ferrari have V8 or V12s in a couple of models and your bill doesn't quite fit there...?

Huh? In Lamborghini's case they are different vehicles, one shares a platform with the Audi R8 the other is a carbon fibre monocoque, the engine configuration is just the most obvious difference.

I'd say the Ferrari naming works well, the GTC4 is available with a V8 and V12 and again follows what every other car manufacturer does in terms of differentiating what are distinct, different models and what are merely variations of a specific model.

[TypeRTim]

JxJ Jr. said:

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

That is what they do. The Sports Series is the model, the 540/570 is the variant.

JxJ Jr. said:

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

Not this again.

Why on earth does it matter? Mclaren have been making road cars (in this guise as Mclaren Automotive) for 8 years. But i suppose in those 8 years, to be considered a proper modern sports car company they needed to design, develop and make 5 different engines of differing configurations, 7 different chassis designs with different engine mounting options and unique gearboxes to go with them, several different hybrid powertrains, at least one fully electric model and for them all to be bulletproof in reliability, each have unique characteristics and styling and to hold on to 90% of their value after 3 years?

In the same time frame, Lambo have developed 1 truly new model in the Urus and 2 replacements in the Huracan and the Aventador. The Urus is, in reality, a badge engineering exercise of the Bentayga, Touareg, Q8 and Cayenne. The Huracan is co-developed alongside the R8, as well as sharing large parts of its running gear (engine, gearbox and 4wd system). The Aventador is the only standalone unique product with a standalone unique engine.

And that is with the huge financial backing, economies of scale and parts sharing deals within the VW group and decades of experience of building supercars going back to the 1960s. The v12 in the Aventador is the first all-new one since 1964. Even the 6.2 from the Murcielago can trace its roots back to this engine.

The 991 generation 911 coupe has 17 variants, covered by 3 engines of the same configuration (3.0, 3.8, 4.0 flat 6 turbo).
The Mclaren range has, in its entirety, 8 variations covered by 2 engines of the same configuration (3.8, 4.0 V8T)

But yeah, Mclaren are the ones that trot out the same stuff all the time.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

So the only differentiation is the engine? I thought you meant about the names being the same throughout, not the engines?

Ferrari have V8 or V12s in a couple of models and your bill doesn't quite fit there...?

Huh? In Lamborghini's case they are different vehicles, one shares a platform with the Audi R8 the other is a carbon fibre monocoque, the engine configuration is just the most obvious difference.

I'd say the Ferrari naming works well, the GTC4 is available with a V8 and V12 and again follows what every other car manufacturer does in terms of differentiating what are distinct, different models and what are merely variations of a specific model.

I'm getting confused, sorry. What's your argument against the McLaren nomenclature again?

[JxJ Jr.]

TypeRTim said:

JxJ Jr. said:

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

That is what they do. The Sports Series is the model, the 540/570 is the variant.

So you're saying they're actually called McLaren Sport 570S, McLaren Super 720 and McLaren Ultimate Senna, as that's how model names work, but not even McLaren are calling or badging them up as such.

TypeRTim said:

JxJ Jr. said:

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

Not this again.

Yep. And it will be, again and again until either:
1. McLaren come up with something that is actually discernibly different (V6, I hear?)
2. Employees/fans stop claiming McLaren make anything other than one car with minor tweaks
3. Critics accept that minor tweaks equate to being a different model

[JxJ Jr.]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm getting confused, sorry. What's your argument against the McLaren nomenclature again?

Basically, it should be renamed to:

McLaren One
McLaren One S
McLaren One SS
McLaren One SSS
McLaren One SSSS
McLaren One SSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSSS

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm getting confused, sorry. What's your argument against the McLaren nomenclature again?

Basically, it should be renamed to:

McLaren One
McLaren One S
McLaren One SS
McLaren One SSS
McLaren One SSSS
McLaren One SSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSSS

Just because you can't get a grasp of something that is fairly straightforward it doesn't make it particularly confusing. People don't moan at Porsche C2, C2S, Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3 RS, GT2 RS etc plus all the Cayman/Boxster ranges. Firstly, there are significant differences between the Sports series and Super series....the tubs and suspension set up is very, very different. You're saying that it's not seemingly enough to differentiate models, and yet the Cayman/Boxster are essentially the same but one is a convertible, but that's OK to be a different model?

If you think they're all the same cars then you're just showing how ignorant you are. Or do you think "same engine, same car"? In which case, a BMW 730d must be an identical car to a 330d, I guess.

[S1KRR]

JxJ Jr. said:

TypeRTim said:

Here's a way to simplify for you:

Each Series is like a model, Sports Series being your Cayman, Super Series being your 911 and Ultimate Series being your on-offs like the Carrera GT or 918.

So why not call each variant in a model/series the same thing differentiated by its variant like every manufacturer from Dacia to Rolls-Royce does?

And Cayman -> 911 -> Carrera GT/918 also goes: Mid engine F4/F6 -> Rear Engine F6 -> Mid Engine V10/V8 Hybrid.
While Sports Series -> Super Series -> Ultimate Series goes: Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8 -> Mid engine V8.

And before people go "yes, yes, but the engine in the super series has a different intake system...balsa wood con rod bolts...etc.", yes, we know, the same diesel engine that goes into something as mundane as a Fiesta and Focus also has differences in components but its the same basic thing. And yes, we know it costs money to develop new platforms, engines, etc and that may not be commercially viable, but pretending the same thing churned out again and again somehow makes up a range of different products is not convincing.

JXJ


You are wasting your time man!

The Fanbois are in, and they simply WILL NOT accept that a long line of Carbon tubbed, 2 seat mid engine V8TT cars with minor tweaking every 10 weeks from the same manufacturer doesn't mean a manufacturer has depth to its range!

And these same fanbois will try to prove other manufacturers are "just as bad" by saying that a Mid Engine 4 cylinder 718 Boxster, is the same as a rear engine 6 cylinder TT GT2RS, and is the same as a V8TT mid engine, hybrid 918


Or they will try to say that "Ah but Lambo are powered by Audi so of course they can afford a big range of different vehicles". Which is true, but imagine if instead of constantly fannying around tweaking a 540 into a 570 into a 600 into a 620. McLaren saved up their pennies and built a 2+2 V8TT GT car instead. Or approached Range Rover about a platform share on the Sport and popped their McLaren SUV body on it. (which would probably generate far more sales than another badge tweak special)

We'll be having the same arguments in February when the next McLaren V8TT, carbon tubbed 2 seat mid engine car comes out and the same fanbois try EVERSOHARD to convince those with EYES that it's not the same fking car. Again!

What do you think? A 640RS? Or a 770R or perhaps a Senna-Lm-X

[JxJ Jr.]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm getting confused, sorry. What's your argument against the McLaren nomenclature again?

Basically, it should be renamed to:

McLaren One
McLaren One S
McLaren One SS
McLaren One SSS
McLaren One SSSS
McLaren One SSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSSS

Just because you can't get a grasp of something that is fairly straightforward it doesn't make it particularly confusing. People don't moan at Porsche C2, C2S, Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3 RS, GT2 RS etc plus all the Cayman/Boxster ranges. Firstly, there are significant differences between the Sports series and Super series....the tubs and suspension set up is very, very different. You're saying that it's not seemingly enough to differentiate models, and yet the Cayman/Boxster are essentially the same but one is a convertible, but that's OK to be a different model?

If you think they're all the same cars then you're just showing how ignorant you are. Or do you think "same engine, same car"? In which case, a BMW 730d must be an identical car to a 330d, I guess.

I agree with you on one point: That you are confused. Very confused. But it clearly started way before this thread did.

[SidewaysSi]

I wonder if McLaren will still be around in 10 years.

[EK993]

Porsche have been making cars for 80 years, same for Ferrari. It would be nice if McLaren had a lineup of several engines and chassis platforms to choose from but - at least to me - that seems to be unrealistic given how long they have been building road cars.

There is some differentiation in the McLaren Series lineup

Sports Series - Current mainstream technology

Super Series - Advanced technology - for example active aero and suspension on the 12C / 720S

Ultimate Series - Cutting edge technology such as hybrid powertrains and advanced materials. For example the P1 which competed on technology with it's contemporaries the LaFerrari and the 918 Spyder

I guess the idea is that the technology from the higher up series makes its way down as it becomes more mainstream. An example would be the potential new hybrid powertrain in the upcoming Sports Series replacement.

Edited by EK993 on Wednesday 11th December 19:31

[ate one too]

Where's RamboLambo when you need an unbiased explanation on all that is good about that there carbon tub ???

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

JxJ Jr. said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

I'm getting confused, sorry. What's your argument against the McLaren nomenclature again?

Basically, it should be renamed to:

McLaren One
McLaren One S
McLaren One SS
McLaren One SSS
McLaren One SSSS
McLaren One SSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSS
McLaren One SSSSSSS

Just because you can't get a grasp of something that is fairly straightforward it doesn't make it particularly confusing. People don't moan at Porsche C2, C2S, Turbo, Turbo S, GT3, GT3 RS, GT2 RS etc plus all the Cayman/Boxster ranges. Firstly, there are significant differences between the Sports series and Super series....the tubs and suspension set up is very, very different. You're saying that it's not seemingly enough to differentiate models, and yet the Cayman/Boxster are essentially the same but one is a convertible, but that's OK to be a different model?

If you think they're all the same cars then you're just showing how ignorant you are. Or do you think "same engine, same car"? In which case, a BMW 730d must be an identical car to a 330d, I guess.

I agree with you on one point: That you are confused. Very confused. But it clearly started way before this thread did.

Here's a question - would you be happier if the 570S range didn't use a carbon tub? The carbon tub is very suitable for a top of the range super car. By using it with modifications in the cheaper cars is cheaper than developing an aluminium structure, yet you still get a better product.

The engine, I agree, I think they could do with something more special for the top of the range cars. It's certainly got the punch, but I don't think it sounds special, personally. But to say all of the cars are the same isn't true. They're a sports car manufacturer, not a saloon manufacturer.

PH when Ferrari or Porsche announce SUV - we don't need this rubbish, they should stick to sports cars
also PH when McLaren make a range of sports cars - they need to branch out and make other cars like SUVs and estates

[TypeRTim]

JxJ Jr. said:

Yep. And it will be, again and again until either:
1. McLaren come up with something that is actually discernibly different (V6, I hear?)
2. Employees/fans stop claiming McLaren make anything other than one car with minor tweaks
3. Critics accept that minor tweaks equate to being a different model

1.) Why? Why go through the expense of designing and developing a new engine architecture when the existing one fits the bill.
2.) They make 4 distinct models with very different purposes and component make-up.
- The Sport Series has 'normal' independant coil sprung suspension, is much more compact and has simple static aero.
- The Super Series has the hydraulically linked anti-dive and anti-roll suspension set up, active aero, is physically larger and has a bigger engine
- The Ultimate Series has cutting edge technology in both materials and aerodynamics
- The GT is packaged completely differently with a focus on comfort and refinement

3.) If you can't tell a 570s from a Senna and can't appreciate that they are completely different vehicles then you are a blind fool.

Yes they share elements and an engineering philosophy, but that's because it is a company with limited resource and also some of them are the best tools for the job.

Are you suggesting that they should bin the carbon fibre tub for something inferior in say the sports series, just to make a difference to the car on paper. They invested a hell of a lot of money in to the design, development and refinement of that technology and it is the best tool for the job thanks to its strength/weight ratio.
Or should they have develop a brand spanking new v12 for the Senna that delivers the same power output that was achieved by revising elements of the V8, just to make it a bit different?
Or should they have compromised the weight, handling and packaging of the GT, developed a brand new chassis, engine subframes, gearbox and electronics architecture bespoke to that single model just to move the engine to the front to make it more like a 'traditional' GT?

To say that the Sports Series, Super Series, GT and Ultimate Series are the same cars with MINOR tweaks is ridiculous.

Are you saying then that the Skoda Octavia and VW Golf are the same car? They share the same platforms and engines. Both are front wheel drive, powered by Inilne 4 engines. That must make them exactly the same car with minor tweaks in your mind.

[JxJ Jr.]

TypeRTim said:

JxJ Jr. said:

Yep. And it will be, again and again until either:
1. McLaren come up with something that is actually discernibly different (V6, I hear?)
2. Employees/fans stop claiming McLaren make anything other than one car with minor tweaks
3. Critics accept that minor tweaks equate to being a different model

1.) Why? Why go through the expense of designing and developing a new engine architecture when the existing one fits the bill.
2.) They make 4 distinct models with very different purposes and component make-up.
- The Sport Series has 'normal' independant coil sprung suspension, is much more compact and has simple static aero.
- The Super Series has the hydraulically linked anti-dive and anti-roll suspension set up, active aero, is physically larger and has a bigger engine
- The Ultimate Series has cutting edge technology in both materials and aerodynamics
- The GT is packaged completely differently with a focus on comfort and refinement

3.) If you can't tell a 570s from a Senna and can't appreciate that they are completely different vehicles then you are a blind fool.

Yes they share elements and an engineering philosophy, but that's because it is a company with limited resource and also some of them are the best tools for the job.

Are you suggesting that they should bin the carbon fibre tub for something inferior in say the sports series, just to make a difference to the car on paper. They invested a hell of a lot of money in to the design, development and refinement of that technology and it is the best tool for the job thanks to its strength/weight ratio.
Or should they have develop a brand spanking new v12 for the Senna that delivers the same power output that was achieved by revising elements of the V8, just to make it a bit different?
Or should they have compromised the weight, handling and packaging of the GT, developed a brand new chassis, engine subframes, gearbox and electronics architecture bespoke to that single model just to move the engine to the front to make it more like a 'traditional' GT?

To say that the Sports Series, Super Series, GT and Ultimate Series are the same cars with MINOR tweaks is ridiculous.

Are you saying then that the Skoda Octavia and VW Golf are the same car? They share the same platforms and engines. Both are front wheel drive, powered by Inilne 4 engines. That must make them exactly the same car with minor tweaks in your mind.

TypeRTim said:

Not this again.