Diagnostics fee!!

[Davie]

So hang on, you're telling me you just plug in a computer and it tells you what part to replace? No, it doesn't... generally speaking, the fault codes give an indication of what sensor has detected an issue but said issue may be something else. That's where time (and knowledge) comes in to play.

I had an ABS fault code on the Volvo. Tame mechanic has top end Snap On kit plus hefty annual update costs. The clock starts ticking as soon as he gets the keys in hand. Get the system out, plugged in and fired up... it all takes time. ABS fault code related to NSF speed sensor. Next, take the car a drive or raise it in the (expensive) ramp and then using live data, check to see if the NSF sensor is recording a speed signal. It's not.

Wheel off and visually check and clean the ABS pick up ring, a known issue but all is well. Remove the sensor, it's seized in place so carefully manipulate it free to check the tip for obvious damage. Also continuity check the wiring to make sure there's no breaks. Bench testing the sensor reveals that it's within spec. Cue some head scratching.

Refit the sensor and recheck with live data and note it's now recording a speed signal. Clear the codes, road-test. Problem resolved.

Didn't immediately reason codes, condemn the sensor and put it on the car, hoping it'd cure it. I also said upon arrival "it's probably the sensor or the ring, the Internet said so" and we'd have both been wrong and I'd have had a bill for a sensor and / or ABS ring plus labour.

He spent about an hour on it, correctly diagnosing the fault or more to the point, making sure he eliminated many possibilities before drawing a conclusion. So theres your £50 diagnostic charge. Any subsequent repairs over and above would be more.

So, it's not always as clear cut as simply checking the codes. Cars are clever, but not that clever...

[Dodsy]

This is to a large extent about the manufacturers giving dealers an extra revenue stream .

Take my jag for example. If tyre pressure is low the TPMS system tells which wheel to put air in . But if a sensor goes faulty it wont tell you which one just displays ‘tyre pressure sensor fault’. The computer knows which one is faulty and could easily tell you on the dash display but then the dealer wouldnt get their diagnostic fee in addition to replacing the sensor

[thebraketester]

Yes. If you have an issue with a wheel sensor and you scan the car it will tell you which one is causing the fault.

Of cause it could be a wiring issue but usually it’s the actual part at fault.

[Sticks.]

[redacted]

[Davie]

thebraketester said:

Yes. If you have an issue with a wheel sensor and you scan the car it will tell you which one is causing the fault.

Of cause it could be a wiring issue but usually it’s the actual part at fault.

Usually?

Not many good garages will put expensive parts on a car on the basis they usually are to blame.

Sore knee, we'll just fire a replacement joint in there as that's usually to blame... we hope.

Can't win. Do the job properly, people whine. Replace parts based on an educated guess and get it wrong, people whine.

Breakdown the bill, people whine... don't break down the bill, people whine.

"But it's a five minute job" said the internet. Funnily enough, my wife uses that line a lot too... usually having asked for a new kitchen or the sun to be shifted to a new orbit.

[milkround]

If done properly testing a sensor is more than just plugging in a scanner. You will use an oscillioscope and see if the trace is what is expected from that sensor etc. That requires both skill and equipment and it's better to have someone with those skills do the job properly than simply changing random parts.

For someone skilled (which I'm not really) diagnostics of a sensor is... plug the scanner in. It says problem with X sensor. Then go to that sensor and check for damage to wiring etc. Then unplug it, clean the connections etc. Go back to scanner and see is problem remains. After that use the scope to probe the waveform to see if it really is that sensor etc. Comparing the expected waveform with what is given. Finally trying to work out what is wrong with the sensor before deciding to replace it.

Diagnosing a sensor would take me longer to do than replacing it. So I think a fee is fair. But I wouldn't be happy with them randomly changing sensors if it didn't fix the problem. I have done randomly changing myself. But that was because it was a cheap £12 sensor and fortunately it did fix the problem. For £12 I was willing to take the hit if i was wrong.

Edited by milkround on Tuesday 10th December 09:53

[red_slr]

Diagnostics are not what they used to be.

A lot of dealers now have to log in using a dealer account directly to the factory whilst connected to the vehicle using a web portal. Each log in costs eye watering sums.

I think this started maybe around 2015 ish on German cars, and as such most dealers now charge a fee for this service. You cant just plug and play any more on really new stuff. No password - no worky.

A lot of the "man and van" diagnostic guys are struggling now to code newer stuff and if parts fail which used to just require a re-set or re-code now they need to go to main dealer.

There are ways around some of it, but independent garages struggle even more as they have to ensure they have been on the training course, can provide exact records etc etc so a lot just don't bother due to the cost.

[ZeroGroundZero]

To go some way to offer a solution to sky high diagnostic fees :

https://www.bluedriver.com/

Its basically a plug-in dongle (in to the OBD II port) and an app on your phone. Connects via bluetooth and gives an array of error code read outs.
Can also turn off dashboard warnings.

Its a 1st step in to quickly decoding the engine warning light , but obviously would then require automotive mechanic/electirical knowledge to go further.

To be fair, with the error warning recognition and the raft of videos on youtube, one can easily get an idea of the problem and how to fix it. You can then get an idea of likely cost and tell if the garage is trying to pull a fast one.

[dhutch]

thebraketester said:

Did you know which sensor it was that needed replacing?

I am guessing not, hence the diagnostic charge to find out which sensor it was that needed replacing.

I didnt know, and didnt spend any time looking at all.

However having now picked up the car, I understand the cause of failure was mechanical damage due to a swelled abs ring. So it would have been posible to diagnose without a code reader. Obviously the code read, for which I have the printout, was able to tell them it was front left which is valuable and time saving information.

They are a bosch service place and used a 'ESI[tronic] 2.0' system.

The repair bill grew a further £20 since the start of the thread, the cost of the new ring, but this was fitted free of charge including cleaning up the hub. They also need to helicoil the thread for the sensor retaining bolt apparently. Which if nothing else is a very good reason to use the diagnostics port first rather than pull sensors at random to check for damage. 1hours labour for the whole job was £65.

For clarity, I am not even complaining about the total cost, certainly not for their being a labour cost to finding the fault. But that the cost of using the machine being billed out seems odd.

Say if the machine costs £1000 a year to run, based on figures banded around on here and my own googling, use it 25 times and it has covered all its costs and more. Even a small garage thats a tiny number of uses. I wouldn't be surprised if it covered its costs two weeks in, even with the labour for plugging it in.

Obviously if the £45 includes 20mins time spent removing the wheel and sensor (maybe even put the sensor on test?) to confirm that then maybe it is reasonable.
Certainly an hour to get it up, remove a wheel, remove a stuck sensor, pull the hub off, remove abs ring, clean up, fit new abs ring, hub back on and set, sensor thread helicoiled, new sensor in, plugged together, off the ramp, tested. Doesn't seem mad.

Either way, the lights have gone out and I have ABS and DSC back again in time for any snow merseyside might throw at us.

Daniel

[dhutch]

[redacted]

[littlebasher]

I had a garage try to charge me a diagnostic fee (£49) as part of a normal service.

Their choice to plug it in, i never asked them to do that and certainly wasn't paying it.

[Slow]

Here you go. Works fine, I have one and can read most codes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Creator-Reader-Scanner-Di...

[Shakermaker]

Slow said:

Here you go. Works fine, I have one and can read most codes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Creator-Reader-Scanner-Di...

Does your mechanic trust you when you go in and say "Well I've plugged it in, and it says error code P2015, so can you please replace the manifold sensor?" or does he want to go in and check it himself?

[dhutch]

littlebasher said:

I had a garage try to charge me a diagnostic fee (£49) as part of a normal service.

Thats a bit mad.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Isnt that basicaly the same as what you get from the OBD anyway?

[dhutch]

We're still missing the base answer.

How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?

What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?

[Slow]

Shakermaker said:

Slow said:

Here you go. Works fine, I have one and can read most codes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Creator-Reader-Scanner-Di...

Does your mechanic trust you when you go in and say "Well I've plugged it in, and it says error code P2015, so can you please replace the manifold sensor?" or does he want to go in and check it himself?

Normally do it myself but with the code reader its pretty simple as it tells you which sensor is not working. You then go into the live data stream and see whats going on and test.

They dont do alot different other than higher end equipment but for basic work the cheap ones work fine.

[red_slr]

dhutch said:

If that is true, and the way we are going (i have heard similar things about agricultural equipment) then that is a very sad day for all.

Daniel

Just one example

https://topix.landrover.jlrext.com/topix/vehicle/l...

[CrgT16]

Everyone is a mechanic these days... You don't like the charges go elsewhere. I have no issues with a diagnostic fee as I am paying for the time, equipment and knowledge/experience of my mechanic. The overall price is within what I am happy to pay so I hold no resentment the guy has overheads and a living to make, I am happy with it. Service is good...

Why aren't mechanics allowed to earn their wage? Many people, high earners working for companies with a six-figure salary... are they more worthy of a wage? What do they do? shift papers about?

I am happy if overall price is fine. Stop moaning.

[valiant]

littlebasher said:

I had a garage try to charge me a diagnostic fee (£49) as part of a normal service.

Their choice to plug it in, i never asked them to do that and certainly wasn't paying it.

With Volvo it’s actually advertised as part of the annual service to get the latest updates. With most modern Volvos, a non-Vida (Volvo specific diagnostic tool) code reader will not show all the error codes or be specific enough to guarantee first time fix.

With my local dealer, they charge £69 to have a look with their system but, in my case anyway, they waive the fee if they find nothing wrong as long as the car has the latest updates. Get a free wash’n’vac as well!

For a main dealer, they’re pretty good.

[mighty kitten]

It I had a pound for every bm that’s had new rear sensors fitted to fix a rust swollen reluctor ring I’d have enough for a decent take away 😁. I do a special price on all wiring faults where the repair is free you only pay to find it .