Diagnostics fee!!
Discussion
I know this is an old topic, but then years on, I still dont get why it is a separate charge.
Fair enough if you are asking for diagnostics alone, but if you are a regular customer and it is part of them doing the work?
ABS light on the e46 has come on, some googling later, 98% points to a sensor failure. Struggle to make time to spend the car myself, so into the garage it goes. I tell them the exact symptoms, and they agree it seems like a sensor failure. Front sensors are £36 and handed, rears are £60 and not.
Bill comes out at £135+vat, of which:
£36 is the sensor
£45 diagnostics fee
£54 therefore labour
£27 vat on top
£45+vat is £54
I can almost understand it back in the days where it was special new/rare kit, but 98% cars they see much have an obd port now, at which point it is as common as putting a car on the lift. Can you imagine if you went in for an exhaust at it had an extra £50 stuck on for 'use of a lift' as well as parts and labour?
Daniel
Fair enough if you are asking for diagnostics alone, but if you are a regular customer and it is part of them doing the work?
ABS light on the e46 has come on, some googling later, 98% points to a sensor failure. Struggle to make time to spend the car myself, so into the garage it goes. I tell them the exact symptoms, and they agree it seems like a sensor failure. Front sensors are £36 and handed, rears are £60 and not.
Bill comes out at £135+vat, of which:
£36 is the sensor
£45 diagnostics fee
£54 therefore labour
£27 vat on top
£45+vat is £54
I can almost understand it back in the days where it was special new/rare kit, but 98% cars they see much have an obd port now, at which point it is as common as putting a car on the lift. Can you imagine if you went in for an exhaust at it had an extra £50 stuck on for 'use of a lift' as well as parts and labour?
Daniel
It's perfectly reasonable.
Equipment needs paid for. A ramp tends to last a long time with minimal maintenance (and is undoubtedly already paid for) whereas diagnostic equipment can be extremely expensive and often needs regular and costly updates. The cheap OBD readers you can buy on eBay cannot do complex diagnostics or coding.
There's also the time aspect of the diagnosis for which the garage needs reimbursed, and the fact many customers will simply decline the job after the diagnosis, so it makes sense from a business perspective to bill separately.
If you do know about diagnostics yourself, and begrudge paying for it, perhaps you could consider doing the job yourself to save a few quid?
Equipment needs paid for. A ramp tends to last a long time with minimal maintenance (and is undoubtedly already paid for) whereas diagnostic equipment can be extremely expensive and often needs regular and costly updates. The cheap OBD readers you can buy on eBay cannot do complex diagnostics or coding.
There's also the time aspect of the diagnosis for which the garage needs reimbursed, and the fact many customers will simply decline the job after the diagnosis, so it makes sense from a business perspective to bill separately.
If you do know about diagnostics yourself, and begrudge paying for it, perhaps you could consider doing the job yourself to save a few quid?
I sympathise with the OP to certain extent as there is an element of 'rent-seeking' going on with diagnostics. Various government bodies have put pressure on manufacturers to standardise diagnostic systems with varying levels of success (standard ports, locations, protocols etc.) but the manufacturers always look for ways of maintaining the closed-shop. They will say it is to prevent rivals getting the benefit of their R&D, but components like ABS sensors, fuel pressure sensors, MAFs etc. could and should be standardised electrically if not physically and the ability to be diagnosed without the need of additional equipment.
Most cars these days carry more computing power in the infotainment systems alone than the laptops used for dealer diagnostics so why the need, unless to to be able to skin you for the physical act of plugging in the equipment, which is really all it is.
Most cars these days carry more computing power in the infotainment systems alone than the laptops used for dealer diagnostics so why the need, unless to to be able to skin you for the physical act of plugging in the equipment, which is really all it is.
I'd count my lucky stars that the invoice was so reasonable. Diagnostics might be £10 more than you might expect but they've got to charge for it.
I got fed up of Mercedes charging me £500 for fitting a new ABS sensor each time it showed a fault.
I bought a £100 code reader to indentify which sensor, bought the part from Mercedes for £120 and looked at youtube to get fitting instuctions. What concerned me was that I fitted it inside 1hr30 so I'm wondering how Mercedes ever managed to charge me £380 labour etc. but that's another story.
Diagnostics are chargeable- it's a service to you.
I got fed up of Mercedes charging me £500 for fitting a new ABS sensor each time it showed a fault.
I bought a £100 code reader to indentify which sensor, bought the part from Mercedes for £120 and looked at youtube to get fitting instuctions. What concerned me was that I fitted it inside 1hr30 so I'm wondering how Mercedes ever managed to charge me £380 labour etc. but that's another story.
Diagnostics are chargeable- it's a service to you.
Yep, you're totally right, they should totally have gone from exactly what you said and not done any diagnostic at all, then even if, eeeeeeven if they dare to not believe you and do their own diagnostic they should totally not charge for it at all because their time, software and hardware is all free isn't it.
Evercross said:
I sympathise with the OP to certain extent as there is an element of 'rent-seeking' going on with diagnostics. Various government bodies have put pressure on manufacturers to standardise diagnostic systems with varying levels of success (standard ports, locations, protocols etc.) but the manufacturers always look for ways of maintaining the closed-shop.
I guess one of the issuesJaredVannett said:
What's the subscription cost for AutoLogic Diagnostic Kits (Dealer level diagnosis) these days..... £16k?
I guess if it really is substantially more than that, a lift and the overheads on the roof over it, then maybe there is some logic between in effect taking it off the bill of and oil change or mot, routine service items that do not need that equipment.sjg said:
What if it wasn't a sensor?
Decent garages aren't using a £20 ebay special code reader either, it's Delphi or similar at 4-figures minimum for the kit and hundreds every year to keep it up to date.
But then if if it is actually just £8000 and £500 a year, thats back to the same point that I would personally expect it to be just part of the labour.Decent garages aren't using a £20 ebay special code reader either, it's Delphi or similar at 4-figures minimum for the kit and hundreds every year to keep it up to date.
Hard to know.
So I guess it comes down to; as a percentage of garages annual cost, how much is the diagnostics kit?
Daniel
Evercross said:
I sympathise with the OP to certain extent as there is an element of 'rent-seeking' going on with diagnostics. Various government bodies have put pressure on manufacturers to standardise diagnostic systems with varying levels of success (standard ports, locations, protocols etc.) but the manufacturers always look for ways of maintaining the closed-shop. They will say it is to prevent rivals getting the benefit of their R&D, but components like ABS sensors, fuel pressure sensors, MAFs etc. could and should be standardised electrically if not physically and the ability to be diagnosed without the need of additional equipment.
Most cars these days carry more computing power in the infotainment systems alone than the laptops used for dealer diagnostics so why the need, unless to to be able to skin you for the physical act of plugging in the equipment, which is really all it is.
It's a very good point. When you look at the onboard computer hardware/software, it could absolutely be integrated with the OBD connection and display it's own diagnostic. When you look at the software used in something like an iCarsoft unit which anyone can buy and use it's not high end software. It is very very niche and in turn I would say is deliberately kept that way for the purposes of making money. Most cars these days carry more computing power in the infotainment systems alone than the laptops used for dealer diagnostics so why the need, unless to to be able to skin you for the physical act of plugging in the equipment, which is really all it is.
I'm not saying independent garages are the same, they buy the necessary equipment to run diagnostics on various vehicles but the tech must be there whereby you could fully integrate diagnostics into the car.
dhutch said:
berlintaxi said:
So who should pay for the software?
Same person who pays for the lift and the build it is in.
ks - you don't get a "spanner" charge, or a trolley jack charge. It's a tool that these days is essential to the job. Fair enough charging a diagnostic fee if that is what they are doing and nothing else.dhutch said:
Evercross said:
I sympathise with the OP to certain extent as there is an element of 'rent-seeking' going on with diagnostics. Various government bodies have put pressure on manufacturers to standardise diagnostic systems with varying levels of success (standard ports, locations, protocols etc.) but the manufacturers always look for ways of maintaining the closed-shop.
I guess one of the issuesJaredVannett said:
What's the subscription cost for AutoLogic Diagnostic Kits (Dealer level diagnosis) these days..... £16k?
I guess if it really is substantially more than that, a lift and the overheads on the roof over it, then maybe there is some logic between in effect taking it off the bill of and oil change or mot, routine service items that do not need that equipment.sjg said:
What if it wasn't a sensor?
Decent garages aren't using a £20 ebay special code reader either, it's Delphi or similar at 4-figures minimum for the kit and hundreds every year to keep it up to date.
But then if if it is actually just £8000 and £500 a year, thats back to the same point that I would personally expect it to be just part of the labour.Decent garages aren't using a £20 ebay special code reader either, it's Delphi or similar at 4-figures minimum for the kit and hundreds every year to keep it up to date.
Hard to know.
So I guess it comes down to; as a percentage of garages annual cost, how much is the diagnostics kit?
Daniel
Dog Star said:
I'm with this. This diagnostic charge is bks - you don't get a "spanner" charge, or a trolley jack charge. It's a tool that these days is essential to the job. Fair enough charging a diagnostic fee if that is what they are doing and nothing else.
I feel the same, but I suppose you're still going to have the labour charge for the time spent hooking up and using the diagnostic kit.ks - you don't get a "spanner" charge, or a trolley jack charge. It's a tool that these days is essential to the job. Fair enough charging a diagnostic fee if that is what they are doing and nothing else.£45 doesn't seem bad - my Merc indie charged a similar amount for an ABS fault, which I cheerfully paid but would have preferred he hadn't charged for. I was just relieved he'd got it through the MOT for a mere £200.
I did have to have words with a Honda dealer whose "standard diagnostic charge" was £135 - this was to figure out why daughter's car was squealing. Errr...it's the acoustic wear indicator on one of the pads!
Searider said:
dhutch said:
So I guess it comes down to; as a percentage of garages annual cost, how much is the diagnostics kit?
Maybe they should up their hourly rate to cover it to be able to not charge separately. £54/hr or £75/hr - which do you prefer?You are suggesting it is around 30% but it expect it is far less, if was say 5% then £54 becomes £57/hr.
If the question is would I rather pay £54/hour and a £45 surcharge or £57/hour for the my sensor then the latter.
Obviously my major service (oil, filters, plugs) is now £8 more for the extra labour, but sharing is caring!
dhutch said:
At which point, as said, it depends how much as a percentage of the garages running costs are tied up with the diagnotics kit.
You are suggesting it is around 30% but it expect it is far less, if was say 5% then £54 becomes £57/hr.
If the question is would I rather pay £54/hour and a £45 surcharge or £57/hour for the my sensor then the latter.
Obviously my major service (oil, filters, plugs) is now £8 more for the extra labour, but sharing is caring!
But again, not every job requires the diagnostics machine to use. Change a tyre, top up the oil, weld up the exhaust - none of that needs time on the diagnostic machine. You are suggesting it is around 30% but it expect it is far less, if was say 5% then £54 becomes £57/hr.
If the question is would I rather pay £54/hour and a £45 surcharge or £57/hour for the my sensor then the latter.
Obviously my major service (oil, filters, plugs) is now £8 more for the extra labour, but sharing is caring!
They are choosing to market it as a consumable item, rather than a labour or rates charge.
Perhaps they can also claim various tax back on some things but not others, providing they can prove they've used it? Reclaim the VAT on the diagnostics kit, but not on the labour for the mechanic?
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