Diagnostics fee!!
Discussion
dhutch said:
I know this is an old topic, but then years on, I still dont get why it is a separate charge.
Fair enough if you are asking for diagnostics alone, but if you are a regular customer and it is part of them doing the work?
ABS light on the e46 has come on, some googling later, 98% points to a sensor failure. Struggle to make time to spend the car myself, so into the garage it goes. I tell them the exact symptoms, and they agree it seems like a sensor failure. Front sensors are £36 and handed, rears are £60 and not.
Bill comes out at £135+vat, of which:
£36 is the sensor
£45 diagnostics fee
£54 therefore labour
£27 vat on top
£45+vat is £54
I can almost understand it back in the days where it was special new/rare kit, but 98% cars they see much have an obd port now, at which point it is as common as putting a car on the lift. Can you imagine if you went in for an exhaust at it had an extra £50 stuck on for 'use of a lift' as well as parts and labour?
Daniel
I’m inclined to agree. If you bowl up and ask for diagnostics to be done then you’d expect to pay but otherwise it’s just a tool in the box like a spanner and needs to be amortised along with all the other tools in the same manner. You might end up paying the same amount as that’s just the cost of the work but stripping it out as a separate fee seems foolish. Fair enough if you are asking for diagnostics alone, but if you are a regular customer and it is part of them doing the work?
ABS light on the e46 has come on, some googling later, 98% points to a sensor failure. Struggle to make time to spend the car myself, so into the garage it goes. I tell them the exact symptoms, and they agree it seems like a sensor failure. Front sensors are £36 and handed, rears are £60 and not.
Bill comes out at £135+vat, of which:
£36 is the sensor
£45 diagnostics fee
£54 therefore labour
£27 vat on top
£45+vat is £54
I can almost understand it back in the days where it was special new/rare kit, but 98% cars they see much have an obd port now, at which point it is as common as putting a car on the lift. Can you imagine if you went in for an exhaust at it had an extra £50 stuck on for 'use of a lift' as well as parts and labour?
Daniel
I don't mind paying for a diagnostic - it's much cheaper than letting them guess what the issue is and changing parts in the hope that fixes it!
Mind you I have bought a cheap code reader on Amazon now that I run 2 BMWs, and there are 3 others in the family - if it only solves 1 fault it'll have paid for itself.
Mind you I have bought a cheap code reader on Amazon now that I run 2 BMWs, and there are 3 others in the family - if it only solves 1 fault it'll have paid for itself.
mighty kitten said:
It I had a pound for every bm that’s had new rear sensors fitted to fix a rust swollen reluctor ring I’d have enough for a decent take away ??.
Front left in this case, rear sensors appear to be a bit dearer, but at £38 for the sensor it is not likely worth doing anything preventative bar maybe some atf 50!dhutch said:
dhutch said:
We're still missing the base answer.
How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
Anyone?How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
dhutch said:
dhutch said:
We're still missing the base answer.
How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
Anyone?How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
If you dont want a diagnostic doing on your car then say so to the garage, or go elsewhere
dhutch said:
dhutch said:
We're still missing the base answer.
How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
Anyone?How much does a garage spec reader cost, presumably something like the "Bosch ESI[tronic] 2.0" system covers all modern cars?
What does that cost on a PA basis over say five years?
DoubleD said:
Im curious to know what price Tesco buy in their carrots at. Once I know, I will then decide if I want to get some.
With carrots it's easier isn't it as you know the sale price so can have a stab at the mark up.With a diagnostics fee you can't ascertain what the cost of the equipment is can you, can't even have an educated guess
Between the "It's a rip off" and "don't like it don't pay it" extremes there is just a business like middle ground.
A business will aim to maximise profits, BMW wouldn't change for the poster above and take into account his recent experience.....perhaps slightly counter productive but they have procedures, it makes them money and avoids other potential issues (ie it might not make been the same source of a misfire).
All other garages and mechanics feed off this mentality and main dealer higher fixed costs to forge a business for themselves. In the above case they'd have taken the posters word for it as a high possibility, but checked with diagnostics which would have told them the specific cylinder (although you'd then have to wait for them to get the bit) to fast track the hopeful fix - which the diagnostics would have confirmed (and not just that the car was idling nicely again)
Or youtube to see what you might be able to diy, then order one coilpack (lets face it having a spare isn't a bad idea on a car known for them going even if it turns out to be something else) and then have a go yourself, taking more time but that's up to the individual.
All valid methods all with pro's and con's
Main dealer pro's Comeback - Knowledge/Professionalism (some will question this but it should be so!) - access to all manufacturers software/help - no hands on required from you
Main dealer con's Price - lack of customer input/interaction with mechanic - being sold to for other work (contentious as it can be beneficial or speculative borderline mis-selling)
Local garage/one man band Pro's Price - still professional and knowledgeable - access to most diagnostics - no hands on required - convenience (possible better than MD as they are more local or come to you)
Local garage/one man band con's - Price - variance in knowledge/quality/reliability - comeback potentially less
DIY Pro's Price - convenience - increases to knowledge may lead to enhancing cost savings (or making less expensive mistakes in future) - satisfaction
DIY Con's Potential to make things a lot worse, a little knowledge can be dangerous etc - Wasting time you could be doing other things (especially pertinent if you end up not resolving and going back to option 1 or 2) start up costs for tools etc - it's dirty work - it might make you OCD (ie you end up replacing all 6 coil packs now you know how to (this is not necessarily a bad thing in this instance given the age of all the packs.
A business will aim to maximise profits, BMW wouldn't change for the poster above and take into account his recent experience.....perhaps slightly counter productive but they have procedures, it makes them money and avoids other potential issues (ie it might not make been the same source of a misfire).
All other garages and mechanics feed off this mentality and main dealer higher fixed costs to forge a business for themselves. In the above case they'd have taken the posters word for it as a high possibility, but checked with diagnostics which would have told them the specific cylinder (although you'd then have to wait for them to get the bit) to fast track the hopeful fix - which the diagnostics would have confirmed (and not just that the car was idling nicely again)
Or youtube to see what you might be able to diy, then order one coilpack (lets face it having a spare isn't a bad idea on a car known for them going even if it turns out to be something else) and then have a go yourself, taking more time but that's up to the individual.
All valid methods all with pro's and con's
Main dealer pro's Comeback - Knowledge/Professionalism (some will question this but it should be so!) - access to all manufacturers software/help - no hands on required from you
Main dealer con's Price - lack of customer input/interaction with mechanic - being sold to for other work (contentious as it can be beneficial or speculative borderline mis-selling)
Local garage/one man band Pro's Price - still professional and knowledgeable - access to most diagnostics - no hands on required - convenience (possible better than MD as they are more local or come to you)
Local garage/one man band con's - Price - variance in knowledge/quality/reliability - comeback potentially less
DIY Pro's Price - convenience - increases to knowledge may lead to enhancing cost savings (or making less expensive mistakes in future) - satisfaction
DIY Con's Potential to make things a lot worse, a little knowledge can be dangerous etc - Wasting time you could be doing other things (especially pertinent if you end up not resolving and going back to option 1 or 2) start up costs for tools etc - it's dirty work - it might make you OCD (ie you end up replacing all 6 coil packs now you know how to (this is not necessarily a bad thing in this instance given the age of all the packs.
Edited by Scootersp on Wednesday 11th December 14:21
Maybe I'm missing something here but cars these days are full of screens, electronics and software so I don't understand why the car itself can't just put up on a screen exactly what the fault code is, or better still, exactly what the fault is.
Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
basicasic said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but cars these days are full of screens, electronics and software so I don't understand why the car itself can't just put up on a screen exactly what the fault code is, or better still, exactly what the fault is.
Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
My point exactly. I know that my Jaguar XF keeps a full telemetry of every potential issue in its systems from pretty much the day it first turned a wheel, and the JLR SDD software merely reads this data and interprets it..SDD runs in a web-browser of all things! The mongoose cable for connecting to the car costs pennies to make and consists of off-the-shelf microcontrollers. It would take nothing to integrate the functionality into the car's info screen, but intentionally leaving a piece of the jigsaw missing means being able to charge dealers for access to that piece, who then pass the cost on to the customer.Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
basicasic said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but cars these days are full of screens, electronics and software so I don't understand why the car itself can't just put up on a screen exactly what the fault code is, or better still, exactly what the fault is.
Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
My car, an 8yo Merc, will show some details on the dash. My wife's, a 2yo Merc will show quite a bit more.Why plug in a diagnostics machine to read a code when the car already knows what it is and what's wrong?
A Bluetooth OBD dongle and TorquePro cost £5 combined. TorquePro gives me quite a bit of info in the "fault reading" section, but absolutely not everything. Paying a garage £100-ish to diag the EML on my dash, knowing how simple it is to conduct the diag, seems uncomfortable but it's still garage-time, so it's understandable. Going into a garage armed with an idea what the problem might be, thanks to TorquePro, gives me the confidence that the garage isn't ripping me off, and often they roll the cost of the diag into the repair anyway.
Teddy Lop said:
You could always diagnose the fault yourself and instruct them precisely which part to replace?
This is true but it is my understanding that fault codes aren’t always specific but rather a guide to where to begin the deeper investigation. There are lots of fault codes which anyone could self diagnose but others which simply wouldn’t be plausible. This is part of why And wrapped into that aspect is obviously the commercial incentive to use diagnosis to bring consumers back into the dealer system.
Many of us can still remember the late 70s when this behaviour really started with manufacturers such like Renault realising that if you used non cross or flat head screws you removed the ability of a very large number of people to do some very basic domestic tinkering. This brought them back into the shop where you could generate additional revenue but also worknon selling the next replacement etc. We then had clever things like engine covers appearing which served as psychological barriers by putting a physical layer between the owner and consumables such as spark plugs. There are obviously practical reasons for these evolutions but the sales and marketing benefit is always stitched in to each element.
Diagnosis machines is the epitome of this activity. Very practical and very useful and a big step forward but interwoven into the practical advantage is that sales and marketing advantage that it gives you.
But at the same time we can buy fault readers, we can find basic faults and we can fix them at home which can save us from having to go to a dealers and only pay that premium when it is a more complex issue.
In reality, by far the biggest obstacle to home diagnosis and home maintenance and the single largest and most powerful tool that keeps customers trapped into having to go to the dealer for absolutely everything is the laziness of the consumer and their access to easy money supply meaning they have the power to indulge that laziness.
What’s really changed is the willingness of people who earn £20/hour to pay £100/hour for something to be done for them so as to not get their soft hands damaged or lose vital shopping time.
sparks_190e said:
A dealer shouldn't charge you to diagnose an issue? Why do you deserve that service for free? Garages, main dealer or not, are not charities. Their time is money.
I have feeling a lot of people on PH don't work for commercial businesses and think stuff should be free and that money just creates itself to pay wages/rates/tax/insurance/rents/equipment etc....I think they assume that every job should be costed and charged separately without taking into consideration the running costs of the business.
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