RE: Jaguar I-Pace to (and around) the N?rburgring

[Niffty951]

_ppan said:

Niffty951 said:

Shocked at 29€ cost for 125miles. Concerned this is a sign of the future as electric uptake increases.

There's also a serious safety concern to be addressed around the perception of speed. First highlighted by Mr Hammond.

Cruise control, adaptive cruise control. If not, maybe you can tell me what the problem is, I'm not sure what Hammond has said.

I've shortened the post above but I appreciated your efforts to explain. The summary of my underlying concern is that whilst electric motors are extremely efficient and energy can be produced by renewable sources. Meaning they will inevitably be the future in, and for, a lot of years. The current methods of producing, storing and transferring that power are in no way technologically advanced enough to benefit the environment. Fantastic for our economy for sure, with all we need to support them, but very very costly to implement quickly. We cannot just ask the world to be ready. We need to plan how to make this change with minimum cost to the planet.

Practically speaking, like the vast majority of uk citizens who live in terrace housing, flats or high streets. I currently park my car on the road (usually away from home). I can't trail cables across the footpath and down the street at night and the nearest charge point is probably many villages away.

Also, due to the wonders of modern office planning there are less car parking spaces than employees at my place of work (to encourage me to cycle the 104 miles I commute each day). This means no one in our office complex could charge their cars at work.

If petrol & diesel cars are forced off the road over the next 11 years for 2030, then the kind of infrastructure required to be installed to support the hundreds of thousands of commuters I see every morning is going to cause a significant environmental and financial impact. I suspect that a costly network of charge points will be installed rapidly to help this happen. The costs of this installation will be placed on commuters like me, and as we get accustomed to paying £30 per fill, so will it continue to rise.

Now, with upwards of 250kg of batteries in cars all with a shelf life of under 10 years. Plus an immeasurable volume of new construction on our road network to refill those batteries. All supported by new factories and supply chains to produce the cars and new power stations to support our rapidly expanding power grid. I conservatively estimate that over the next 30-50 years we will have created an environmental impact on a scale that hasn't been seen since the industrial revolution (the population is now far greater).

This isn't meant to be a 'the sky is falling in' message, I'm just highlighting that done the way we usually do things as a species, we're currently creating our next big regret. Not the solution to our problems.

Oh and finally just one more point on safety. I've heard numerous reviews of electric cars taking about the difficulty in perception of speed with a silent car and none of the usual indicators. My point was that Richard Hammond, an above average driver misjudged his speed and entered a bend 20mph or more faster than he could have made it. That to me raises a concern about average drivers adapting to electric cars. We need to give people more feedback for the senses that are currently very isolated in electric vehicles.

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 16th December 00:13

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 16th December 00:19

[RobDickinson]

Niffty951 said:

Now, with upwards of 250kg of batteries in cars all with a shelf life of under 10 years.

Even the worst battery packs are on average predicted to outlast the car itself.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123670_nissa...

After being in a car they can do 10-15 years in home energy solutions and then get recycled.

But yes theres going to be quite a resource scramble over the next 10-15 years for the transition to EVs, but remember resources extracted for Evs are used and have working lifetime of 20-30+ years rather than burned once.

[CharlesA]

I wonder about tax - at the moment the government raises significant revenues from fuel excise, while there is nothing like that level of tax on electricity (80% + VAT vs 20% VAT?). As the EV become more prevalent, the government's tax take from fuel will go down and they will need to raise it elsewhere, perhaps from electricity for vehicles (resulting in a similar palaver to red diesel?)

Bottom line is that the liquid fuel costs are heavily increased due to tax, whereas electricity isn't, which makes the cost comparison somewhat biased. On the other hand, I'm not sure this really matters as a) the EV penetration looks pretty slow, so it will be some time before this becomes an issue and b) EVs are seen to be green, so the government will likely look to raise taxes elsewhere anyway.

[RobDickinson]

UK treasury will likely introduce road pricing IMO, £35bn or so in revenue wont be forgotten, but petrol/diesel wont be a cheaper option...

As for market penetration you will see that jump next year

[Sandpit Steve]

The biggest takeaway from this article is that, if you own a non-Tesla EV, you'll spend half your life trying to find compatible chargers, prices for such vary wildly and require a variety of accounts be set up - rather than the simple cash or card payment taken by every petrol station. In other words, it's a complete nightmare to actually do anything more than a short commute.

[SamR380]

Lt. Coulomb said:

nickfrog said:

FlukePlay said:

. Green for me is buying an old car and not plundering the world's resources for a box fresh new one.

Yes, the emissions for production have already happened but what do you do when you run out of old cars?

Uhm that old ICE crap will emit multiple times of the production emissions even in the 8y standard lifecycle so keeping it for decades is a moronic fossil idea.

I used to think the same way as FlukePlay, then I actually did some research. Making a brand new Renault Zoe uses about as much resources and carbon as driving my 'old car' for 18 months.

I only wish I'd swapped sooner.

[cookie1600]

Sandpit Steve said:

The biggest takeaway from this article is that, if you own a non-Tesla EV, you'll spend half your life trying to find compatible chargers, prices for such vary wildly and require a variety of accounts be set up - rather than the simple cash or card payment taken by every petrol station. In other words, it's a complete nightmare to actually do anything more than a short commute.

+1

I'm also perplexed as to the obvious style, comfort and quality of the Jag and how it looks great for doing relaxing long distances, but you'd be driving a trip like this worried about where and when you'd need to be stopping for a top-up. Also, if for any reason the place you wanted to charge up at was closed, you can't take a 5L can as a spare, just to eek you out to an alternative place. With the infrastructure as it is (and that looks to include Europe currently), aren't EV cars just 'round and about town machines?

I also take the very valid point raised that not everyone is going to be able to convert to an EV because in big towns where they are of most value, a lot of people live in accommodation where they can't park the vehicle in a place where it can be plugged in to a home supply.

It seems like an invention that has put the cart before the horse and that horse hasn't got many places where it can eat for the foreseeable future.

[Niffty951]

RobDickinson said:

Niffty951 said:

Now, with upwards of 250kg of batteries in cars all with a shelf life of under 10 years.

Even the worst battery packs are on average predicted to outlast the car itself.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1123670_nissa...

After being in a car they can do 10-15 years in home energy solutions and then get recycled.

But yes theres going to be quite a resource scramble over the next 10-15 years for the transition to EVs, but remember resources extracted for Evs are used and have working lifetime of 20-30+ years rather than burned once.

From articles I've read it can basically be summarised as, it's not currently cost effective to recycle lithium ion batteries as an industry, but by 2030 don't worry, we will have sorted it.

According to the article below recycling of lithium ion phone batteries is in the region of 2%. I've personally found very poor support when trying to recycle larger quantities of lithium ion batteries for work. The fire brigade currently have no training or understanding of risks when approached. I was told binning 10's of kilograms was 'not a concern from their perspective'.

Save your time and scroll down to the Extraction and recycling arguments:

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/Elec...

Also, running a petrol car for 18 months equal to the production of a new Renault ZOE. Seriously, think about that for just a moment.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Niffty951 said:

I can't trail cables across the footpath and down the street at night and the nearest charge point is probably many villages away.

legally you can, just make sure its not a trip hazard

Niffty951 said:

Now, with upwards of 250kg of batteries in cars all with a shelf life of under 10 years. Plus an immeasurable volume of new construction on our road network to refill those batteries. All supported by new factories and supply chains to produce the cars and new power stations to support our rapidly expanding power grid. I conservatively estimate that over the next 30-50 years we will have created an environmental impact on a scale that hasn't been seen since the industrial revolution (the population is now far greater).

Current batteries have a designed life of way longer than the car they are in. The impact of infrastructure change to support charging is insignificant in comparison to the extraction, processing, transportation and burning of fossil fuels. Once the infrastructure is in, its in, once you burn a tank of fuel its gone.

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Monday 16th December 12:39

[Jimbo89]

Flumpo said:

tozerman said:

I'm sorry but the thought of paying £87K for a 2.2 ton electric leviathan that you have to faff around charging leaves me stone cold.
For that much you could buy a brilliant fun/toy car and a really economical hybrid or diesel hatchback for running around.
The best thing is if you buy used then no resources need to be used to make the things.
Cheers..... Tony

99% of people buying one of these vehicles are leasing or pcp. I seem to remember the ipace was going for around £400 a month. You can’t get another hybrid/diesel daily and a fun sporty car for that monthly pay out.

If the same people bought used them £400 would probably get them something for £25k on a hp agreement. That wouldn’t impress the Jones.

Personally I would love an ipace and leasing would be the way I would go. But I do 30k miles a year. So I’m stuck with diesel second hand for the foreseeable future.

£400 a month? Where from? I got quoted £1100 a month for a pretty basic spec when I was looking around a 6-8moths ago.

I think these things look ace and I'm really not worried about the range, if you plan ahead then there are plenty of options for charging. The main issue with EV's in generally is the lack of regulation on charging. Having to pay a monthly fee for a membership of a charging infrastructure you may use once or twice a year should be banned, make contactless pay as you charge the standard for all.

[stabilio]

I test drove an I-Pace last week and was pretty decent but the whole dealership/leasing/haggling thing was a ballache. Loads of waiting about while sales guy spoke to his 'manager' and in the end after a week and some vague one line emails regarding business finance, they said my application had failed despite whoever they use for there business leasing failing to contact me at all.
Was a bit of a kicker as nothing has been declined before so on Saturday morning, I ordered a Model 3 Performance online (in my Pajamas). Surprisingly, 30 minutes later the finance company call and ask 6 simple questions.

Today, Monday morning, lease finance is all good and get a pick up date of next week.
Got me thinking that just how out of date the traditional 'sell' is when I went to my local Jag dealer as thought it would be much simpler, easy and quicker.

[Sandpit Steve]

stabilio said:

I test drove an I-Pace last week and was pretty decent but the whole dealership/leasing/haggling thing was a ballache. Loads of waiting about while sales guy spoke to his 'manager' and in the end after a week and some vague one line emails regarding business finance, they said my application had failed despite whoever they use for there business leasing failing to contact me at all.
Was a bit of a kicker as nothing has been declined before so on Saturday morning, I ordered a Model 3 Performance online (in my Pajamas). Surprisingly, 30 minutes later the finance company call and ask 6 simple questions.

Today, Monday morning, lease finance is all good and get a pick up date of next week.
Got me thinking that just how out of date the traditional 'sell' is when I went to my local Jag dealer as thought it would be much simpler, easy and quicker.

Wow.

Hope someone from Jaguar is reading this. Textbook example of how to lose a sale.

[RemarkLima]

Jimbo89 said:

Flumpo said:

tozerman said:

I'm sorry but the thought of paying £87K for a 2.2 ton electric leviathan that you have to faff around charging leaves me stone cold.
For that much you could buy a brilliant fun/toy car and a really economical hybrid or diesel hatchback for running around.
The best thing is if you buy used then no resources need to be used to make the things.
Cheers..... Tony

99% of people buying one of these vehicles are leasing or pcp. I seem to remember the ipace was going for around £400 a month. You can’t get another hybrid/diesel daily and a fun sporty car for that monthly pay out.

If the same people bought used them £400 would probably get them something for £25k on a hp agreement. That wouldn’t impress the Jones.

Personally I would love an ipace and leasing would be the way I would go. But I do 30k miles a year. So I’m stuck with diesel second hand for the foreseeable future.

£400 a month? Where from? I got quoted £1100 a month for a pretty basic spec when I was looking around a 6-8moths ago.

I think these things look ace and I'm really not worried about the range, if you plan ahead then there are plenty of options for charging. The main issue with EV's in generally is the lack of regulation on charging. Having to pay a monthly fee for a membership of a charging infrastructure you may use once or twice a year should be banned, make contactless pay as you charge the standard for all.

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/jaguar/i-pace/estate/294kw-ev400-s-90kwh-5dr-auto/

Here's one example.

Also, to the weight... The M5 cited in the article is just shy of 2 ton, right? So not quite the lightweight special!

[kellydk]

One thing to note on the MPG figures is that to maintain the maximum distance with the charge meant setting the cruise control to a maximum of 70MPH (based on article). If the same was done with a petrol / diesel car I think the has an impact on the comparison MPG figures.

What was also interesting was the difference in the costs at the different charging locations.

It is clear, that the infrastructure is not in place to support electric vehicles (certainly in the UK). I wonder what happens if you completely run out of charge and get stuck on the side of the road? Does the manufacturer come out and collect you (part of the inevitable PCP deal) or is it down to your own AA / RAC cover to collect you? Will it be treated the same as running out of fuel so you'd be charged?

[willisit]

RemarkLima said:

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/jag...

Here's one example.

Also, to the weight... The M5 cited in the article is just shy of 2 ton, right? So not quite the lightweight special!

I have a very leccy-oriented friend that shows me these "deals"... 5000 miles? I work locally and do 7000, so that's £475 on the basic 'S' model and still needs 9 months up front. That makes it nearer £600 a month. That's not £1100 you'd be paying to buy the thing, I know, but neither is it £400.

[oldtimer2]

If or when governments succeed in replacing the ICE car with a BEV expect the taxes on BEVs to rise too. Governments are notorious for luring the public with cheap "offers" to change behavior only to withdraw them later. Cameron set up a "nudge" unit to do just this. Governments depend on the industry for too much tax revenue to do otherwise.

Meanwhile a lot of government supported research effort is being expended on finding better alternatives to the current crop of lithium-ion batteries. Whether this will succeed is unknown but at least they are giving it a go.

[stabilio]

oldtimer2 said:

If or when governments succeed in replacing the ICE car with a BEV expect the taxes on BEVs to rise too. Governments are notorious for luring the public with cheap "offers" to change behavior only to withdraw them later. Cameron set up a "nudge" unit to do just this. Governments depend on the industry for too much tax revenue to do otherwise.

Meanwhile a lot of government supported research effort is being expended on finding better alternatives to the current crop of lithium-ion batteries. Whether this will succeed is unknown but at least they are giving it a go.

Totally agree with the tax thing which Is why I'm jumping in early.

[phil4]

Niffty951 said:

If I've learned anything from diesel uptake it's that the raw cost of the fuel has nothing to do with sale price and the cost will soon increase as the customers move to a new fuel. Suddenly the 'free' driving looks a bit of a pipe dream

Also worth remembering that many sales of EV's justify the extra price based on the lower running costs, which as you say above could evaporate at a moments notice. So when your car choice costs £5000 more than a petrol equiv, it might really cost that, and no you might not save it in fuel costs.

If you do it you're taking a gamble, early adopters win.

[RemarkLima]

phil4 said:

Niffty951 said:

If I've learned anything from diesel uptake it's that the raw cost of the fuel has nothing to do with sale price and the cost will soon increase as the customers move to a new fuel. Suddenly the 'free' driving looks a bit of a pipe dream

Also worth remembering that many sales of EV's justify the extra price based on the lower running costs, which as you say above could evaporate at a moments notice. So when your car choice costs £5000 more than a petrol equiv, it might really cost that, and no you might not save it in fuel costs.

If you do it you're taking a gamble, early adopters win.

However, by that point, I think the duty on fuel will be massive! Partly to maintain the saving, partly to discourage further purchases. Add in road charging and driving a petrol car a few miles will be an expensive business!