Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Subaru vs bike head on collision.

Author
Discussion

f1nn

2,561 posts

147 months

Saturday 4th April
quotequote all
I’ve not read the entire thread as, well, I don’t really see what there is to discuss.

The drivers lack of observation led to an inappropriate use of speed for that particular section of road.

Unfortunately, on this occasion it resulted in an RTA and injuries to the biker.

No need for the stewards enquiry.

CoolHands

10,939 posts

150 months

Saturday 4th April
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Clearly you haven't watched the video!

Road surface - poor - broken - approx 1/4 of the lane taken up by deep rutting, heavy undulations.

Signage - None to indicate a sharp corner , or to advise of the changing elevation - no corner signs

Markings - no slow markings. only a very late change of central line distance / spacing to indicate an upcoming hazard.
all of which is common for country lanes so in context there is nothing unusual about that bend, and appropriate driving would have never seen a problem.

kiseca

8,008 posts

174 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Again what Jane is doing is ignoring the fact no-one is absolving the driver of blame but taking a more wider view as the reasons as to the crash........

I understand that can be difficult to some to understand :-)
Exactly, which is why Jane has now taken a further step backwards and is now describing the bend as "straightforward" and the accident as "inexplicable".

It's going around in circles now because of this.

Pica-Pica

7,081 posts

39 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
f1nn said:
I’ve not read the entire thread as, well, I don’t really see what there is to discuss.

The drivers lack of observation led to an inappropriate use of speed for that particular section of road.

Unfortunately, on this occasion it resulted in an RTA and injuries to the biker.

No need for the stewards enquiry.
RTC, not RTA.

xjay1337

15,036 posts

73 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
xjay1337 said:
Clearly you haven't watched the video!

Road surface - poor - broken - approx 1/4 of the lane taken up by deep rutting, heavy undulations.

Signage - None to indicate a sharp corner , or to advise of the changing elevation - no corner signs

Markings - no slow markings. only a very late change of central line distance / spacing to indicate an upcoming hazard.
all of which is common for country lanes so in context there is nothing unusual about that bend, and appropriate driving would have never seen a problem.
It does appear somewhat unusual, a calamity of failures and errors from both the council who maintain the road and the drivers

if you watch the video the chap explains having seen multiple cars do exactly what the Subaru did, even at much lower speeds.
He explains the road is a pretty low-use road, I suspect it would happen a lot more if the road was used by more people.

And while the above I mentioned may be common to a lot of "country lanes" I wouldn't really call this road a country lane, it appears on glance to be a fairly large and open A-road . I certainly think with better signage , or a better road surface [IE no double-bump in the middle of it] this accident wouldn't have happened.

Again I am not absolving the error of the driver. I am not excusing him, I am looking at the whole picture and not just grabbing my pitchfork like some seem to do here - although I think the jail sentence is ridiculously harsh given other situations when it's little old dorris do not involve jail.

Some people fail to realise that while an accident can still be "driver error" there is very rarely any situation where there are no other errors which all set in motion a chain of events that changes lives.

Max_Torque

15,165 posts

172 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
kiseca said:
It's going around in circles now because of this.
Lets hope it doesn't hit a bump, understeer onto the wrong side of the forum, and hit another thread coming the other way, eh !! :-)

Killboy

1,992 posts

157 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
kiseca said:
It's going around in circles now because of this.
Lets hope it doesn't hit a bump, understeer onto the wrong side of the forum, and hit another thread coming the other way, eh !! :-)
Will then probably be the forum administrators fault.

kiseca

8,008 posts

174 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
Killboy said:
Max_Torque said:
kiseca said:
It's going around in circles now because of this.
Lets hope it doesn't hit a bump, understeer onto the wrong side of the forum, and hit another thread coming the other way, eh !! :-)
Will then probably be the forum administrators fault.
Hazards of administrating a forum. They should see it coming..

Europa1

10,249 posts

143 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Europa1 said:
I don't. It's 'ad nauseam'.
Phone guilty of auto-correct typo. Couldn't be arsed to go back once it'd posted! Obvious what it meant though, isn't it.
It auto-corrected to "nausuem"? What does that mean?

Sorry, I've been indoors for too long.

Pica-Pica

7,081 posts

39 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
Europa1 said:
janesmith1950 said:
Europa1 said:
I don't. It's 'ad nauseam'.
Phone guilty of auto-correct typo. Couldn't be arsed to go back once it'd posted! Obvious what it meant though, isn't it.
It auto-corrected to "nausuem"? What does that mean?

Sorry, I've been indoors for too long.
This is history - should be ad museum.

768

6,717 posts

51 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
Dead and buried, but we're overdoing it now.

Ad mausoleum.

janesmith1950

6,858 posts

50 months

Monday 6th April
quotequote all
Time for an ad break.

Or an ad brake.

heebeegeetee

26,935 posts

203 months

Tuesday 7th April
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
It does appear somewhat unusual, a calamity of failures and errors from both the council who maintain the road and the drivers

if you watch the video the chap explains having seen multiple cars do exactly what the Subaru did, even at much lower speeds.
He explains the road is a pretty low-use road, I suspect it would happen a lot more if the road was used by more people.

And while the above I mentioned may be common to a lot of "country lanes" I wouldn't really call this road a country lane, it appears on glance to be a fairly large and open A-road . I certainly think with better signage , or a better road surface [IE no double-bump in the middle of it] this accident wouldn't have happened.

Again I am not absolving the error of the driver. I am not excusing him, I am looking at the whole picture and not just grabbing my pitchfork like some seem to do here - although I think the jail sentence is ridiculously harsh given other situations when it's little old dorris do not involve jail.

Some people fail to realise that while an accident can still be "driver error" there is very rarely any situation where there are no other errors which all set in motion a chain of events that changes lives.
The road is known as the Strines road afaiaa. It’s a fairly remote, unclassified country road. It is twisty in some parts with hairpin bends and is single track in places. I don’t know why the council has ‘upgraded’ one part of it, but all this seems to have achieved is to allow ‘car enthusiasts’ to drive far faster than is appropriate and go flying off the road at the first bend. I dare say the nadgery parts of the road are safer.

I can’t imagine what it would cost to sign and road-paint every single bend on the country’s unclassified roads. It would probably be far cheaper to put a blanket speed limit of 30 mph. After all, these roads only really exist to serve the local rural communities.

ETA: Happy to be corrected, I’ve checked google maps and paper maps and can’t find any reference to A or B classification for this road. Is there any other way of classification?


Edited by heebeegeetee on Tuesday 7th April 08:09

SeeFive

7,900 posts

188 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
Clearly, if that bend is unsuitable for a national speed limit passage, then perhaps a reduction in the speed limit prior to the bend should be considered?

I know that this will be alien to those that feel it is up to the driver to drive to the conditions, but in the original video I was concerned that the car ended up on the wrong side of the road given the innocent nature of the change of direction. There just had to be something else in play. Up until that brilliant series of videos from the race instructor guy, I have been reticent to comment for the reason in the next paragraph.

Having seen the investigation videos by the advanced instructor, there are clearly other things contributing to this bend being more severe than it seems in the original dash cam video. It appears quickly at the speed limit, potentially causing unbalance of the car by late excessive braking for inexperienced drivers, or a higher entry speed than could be safe for a driver that simply freezes. It has unsettling bumps on entry and at the apex where the old cattle grid was removed. Terrain falls away at the apex reducing exit grip. At the time of the accident, the poor maintenance of the kerbside surface could persuade a driver to open the steering on entry, requiring unbalancing steering input to regain road position quickly in the event of something coming the other way.

Even with post-incident additional signage and (poor) temporary repairs to the surface, it is clear from the expert demonstrations that a passage through that bend at NSL would be difficult for an average driver, let alone a poor driver. If the speed limit entering Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch was 160mph, would you? You might if you didn’t know it, but I can pretty much guarantee that even with much more road to work with in that bend and no chance of anything coming the other way, in most race cars a far lower entry speed would be easier to handle.

Given the potential inter LA issues mentioned with getting chevrons placed, perhaps a well positioned left bend sign with a maximum speed figure could help here more than just the left bend sign currently erected. This bend has other issues that the sign does not indicate.

Even if some don’t agree with a reduction of the speed limit, then such a sign to guide entry speed to the bend would help the old rule, “slow in fast out” to be applied.

With regard to the driver and his punishment, if he knew the road then perhaps there is more onus on him to drive accordingly - such as anyone experienced enough with getting through Paddock and should still be on the black bit pointing the right way afterwards smile If he didn’t know the road, then I personally believe that there were more contributory factors leading to his speed being a contributing issue on the day. The investigative video seems to suggest that even at 2/3 of the speed, 20mph inside the limit he could have still experienced difficulty.

He could have been far better informed by personal experience or signage, and given the examples of folks being unable to hold road position throughout the investigative videos at lower speeds, I would assume that folks at the NSL will still largely be uninformed of the real issues that piece of road raises, and be chancing to luck that nothing is coming the other way.

Edited by SeeFive on Monday 20th April 13:05

heebeegeetee

26,935 posts

203 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
SeeFive said:
Clearly, if that bend is unsuitable for a national speed limit passage, then perhaps a reduction in the speed limit prior to the bend should be considered?

I know that this will be alien to those that feel it is up to the driver to drive to the conditions, but in the original video I was concerned that the car ended up on the wrong side of the road given the innocent nature of the change of direction. There just had to be something else in play. Up until that brilliant series of videos from the race instructor guy, I have been reticent to comment for the reason in the next paragraph.

Having seen the investigation videos by the advanced instructor, there are clearly other things contributing to this bend being more severe than it seems in the original dash cam video. It appears quickly at the speed limit, potentially causing unbalance of the car by late excessive braking for inexperienced drivers, or a higher entry speed than could be safe for a driver that simply freezes. It has unsettling bumps on entry and at the apex where the old cattle grid was removed. Terrain falls away at the apex reducing exit grip. At the time of the accident, the poor maintenance of the kerbside surface could persuade a driver to open the steering on entry, requiring unbalancing steering input to regain road position quickly in the event of something coming the other way.

Even with post-incident additional signage and (poor) temporary repairs to the surface, it is clear from the expert demonstrations that a passage through that bend at NSL would be difficult for an average driver, let alone a poor driver. If the speed limit entering Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch was 160mph, would you? You might if you didn’t know it, but I can pretty much guarantee that even with much more road to work with in that bend and no chance of anything coming the other way, in most race cars a far lower entry speed would be easier to handle.

Given the potential inter LA issues mentioned with getting chevrons placed, perhaps a well positioned left bend sign with a maximum speed figure could help here more than just the left bend sign currently erected. This bend has other issues that the sign does not indicate.

Even if some don’t agree with a reduction of the speed limit, then such a sign to guide entry speed to the bend would help the old rule, “slow in fast out” to be applied.

With regard to the driver and his punishment, if he knew the road then perhaps there is more onus on him to drive accordingly - such as anyone experienced enough with getting through Paddock and should still be on the black bit pointing the right way afterwards smile If he didn’t know the road, then I personally believe that there were more contributory factors leading to his speed being a contributing issue on the day. The investigative video seems to suggest that even at 2/3 of the speed, 20mph inside the limit he could have still experienced difficulty.

He could have been far better informed by personal experience or signage, and given the examples of folks being unable to hold road position throughout the investigative videos at lower speeds, I would assume that folks at the NSL will still largely be uninformed of the real issues that piece of road raises, and be chancing to luck that nothing is coming the other way.

Edited by SeeFive on Monday 20th April 13:05
Well, I’m stunned. I’m just gobsmacked. If this is how car enthusiasts think, then we’re done for.

At the very start of the video of this incident the first thing to be noticed is that the road ahead in the distance can not be seen, because the road disappears from view over a crest. Nor can the direction of the road be ascertained. So therefore then, it seems it’s now ok to drive at the speed limit and anything adverse that happens at all is not the drivers fault?

Don’t drive to the conditions, don’t drive to what you can see, don’t plan ahead, don’t set your speed to what you can see to be clear, just drive at the limit until you’re specifically told otherwise.

One problem though, on those remote country roads, who do you set the speed limits for, tractors, cars or hgvs?

janesmith1950

6,858 posts

50 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
It must be the road's fault as well because some racing Walt has donned hi vis and what done a reconstruction video.

MightyBadger

257 posts

5 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
100% driver error.

Dont like rolls

3,701 posts

9 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
MightyBadger said:
100% driver error.
With that analysis in mind, remove all the springs from the car etc then it will always be 100% driver error still n?.

Why do you think the Police prosecute car owners for modifying their cars in particular ways ?
Why do some countries have laws preventing the fitment of any "after market" part that has not been approved for its use on a particular car ?

SeeFive

7,900 posts

188 months

Monday 20th April
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Well, I’m stunned. I’m just gobsmacked. If this is how car enthusiasts think, then we’re done for.

At the very start of the video of this incident the first thing to be noticed is that the road ahead in the distance can not be seen, because the road disappears from view over a crest. Nor can the direction of the road be ascertained. So therefore then, it seems it’s now ok to drive at the speed limit and anything adverse that happens at all is not the drivers fault?

Don’t drive to the conditions, don’t drive to what you can see, don’t plan ahead, don’t set your speed to what you can see to be clear, just drive at the limit until you’re specifically told otherwise.

One problem though, on those remote country roads, who do you set the speed limits for, tractors, cars or hgvs?
With respect, not everyone is aware of advanced driving techniques such as you suggest. Personally I wouldn't want to be coming the other way when one of what must be the 90 percent of those that do not drive to the closing point / view ahead appear on the wrong side of the road.

Whilst I do feel that it is undesirable to legislate for the lowest common denominator, I feel in this instance there is an action that can be taken to reduce the potential for driver error at this location given that not all hold the reactions and skills of a driving God, as was clearly demonstrated by the "racing Walt" mentioned by another poster above, observing other cars negotiating the same bend over time. Pretty much all he said, including his fag packet calculations was correct... for a Walt of course. I guess it is easier to just dismiss his thoughts, blame the driver 100% and call him a Walt rather than offer up an argument to where his other considerations for contributing factors are incorrect.

I agree, it appears the driver could have done better in efensive planning and maybe his response to the loss of control. Personally, watching the original video I couldnt see why he initially lost the car on such a bend at such a low speed. Now with the benefit of someone who clearly knows what they are talking about visiting the scene, I can see reasons why.

heebeegeetee

26,935 posts

203 months

Tuesday 21st April
quotequote all
If it helps, I've come across a video from a biker travelling on what I'm fairly certain is the Mortimer Road in question. https://youtu.be/PRT2LOI76Rs
Taking all the comments from our investigator regarding the signing and condition of the road at just one particular location, if the authorises were to give this one bend on an unclassified road "the full treatment", shouldn't they also apply that to the rest of the road, and indeed every bend on every unclassified road?

If we take this as just one small snapshot of the miles of roads we might be talking about, what sort of cost do we think we might be talking about, nationally?
https://goo.gl/maps/FUz5CVzZYjCAfQ886 (Click on the street view symbol and all roads 'light up' )

And just one more thing: I live in deepest suburbia. Nearby, on what used to be my commute to and from work each day, is a straight 30mph perfectly-lit suburban road. Some years back a builder placed a bright yellow skip on the road with a lantern each end. There was no question whatsoever of it's visibility, day or night. Within a couple of nights someone drove straight into it at a bit of speed, destroying his car.

I'm sure an investigator could have done the same amount of work: Driving manuals, highway code, repeated drivebys, drones, YouTube (well, actually I'm not sure they existed back then, certainly not go-pro and hobby drones anyway), and possibly drawn some conclusion other than the driver was just plumb not looking where he was going. Seems strange, but people driving into things (indeed the car in front) is really quite common.

The Subaru hasn't run into a skip but has run into a bend without seeing or realising it is there and crashes as a result, imo. This seems to be the one explanation that our investigator hasn't considered. If you look at the motorcycle video, the road is of a nature that if you stop paying attention you are likely to hit something. I reckon the same could be said for thousands of miles of unclassified road.