Myth about former luxury car brands
Discussion
DoubleD said:
It doesn't really make much difference how you pay for a new vehicle to be honest. The people around you will never know, its either yours forever, but chances are you will sell it after a few years, or its yours for 2/3 years. If you are clever you will look into all options and go for the way that fits your finances best.
Exactly. I always bought my cars until I realised that sometimes it's cheaper to not own so I have no preconcepetions now. I never considered the 320d I bought as luxury, was just interested in a decent rwd car to put a lot of miles on. There was thousands to choose from at 3-4 years old, coming off company car schemes etc, so seemed great value.
I would judge a lot of a cars luxury on the options it has rather than badge, I don't even have leather heated seats or a heated wheel!
I would judge a lot of a cars luxury on the options it has rather than badge, I don't even have leather heated seats or a heated wheel!
Deranged Rover said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
I'm 54 and can remember back to the 1970s when my dad would be choosing between incredibly spartan BMW 316s and Mercedes 200s or go for far more plush Granada 2.3 Ghias, Rover 2600 VPs or Carlton 2.2 CDs.
That reminds me of my sister having the choice of her very first company car back in the early 1990s and my brother-in-law and i 'helping her' to choose.My brother-in-law chose a Vectra as she could have had CDX spec and it was stuffed full of toys, and my vote went to a Mondeo as it was the only one she could have had with a V6 engine.
My sister ignored us both and went for a poverty spec BMW 318 that had no aircon and I think even had wind-up rear windows because "it's a BMW"!
To be fair, it did drive nicely, though...
sasha320 said:
Post Brexit we can look forward to the return of lower numbers of German cars on our streets and the return of German cars being premium cars for wealthy buyers.
Any tariffs or currency exposure will make German cars more expensive, like they were when they were being sold in the powerful Deutschmark.
I predict the return of UK manufactured Ford, Vauxhall to our streets and of course non-EU cars imported on the much promised preferential trade deals.
you really think we wont have a free trade zone? the EU need this, germany desperately as we buy about a million of their cars every yearAny tariffs or currency exposure will make German cars more expensive, like they were when they were being sold in the powerful Deutschmark.
I predict the return of UK manufactured Ford, Vauxhall to our streets and of course non-EU cars imported on the much promised preferential trade deals.
and they know bojo is in a much stronger position now
jakesmith said:
That’s my view, What do people think, who is right?
franchise servicing on German cars is very expensive and out of warranty work can be mind blowing expensive at main dealers£300+ for just an oil change, pollen filters being an extra over the service cost, 'inspection' services where they do no actual work but charge you to find faults they can correct (at least audi and VW do this)
and when you get to the high end stuff £1500 for a set of front discs and pads lol
Truckosaurus said:
Lots of 'German' cars sold in the UK are (or have been) made outside the EU seemingly unhampered by existing tariffs eg. the USA (BMW X-series), Mexico (Golf estates), South Africa (3-series saloons, Golfs)
It is a good point, but ‘seemingly unhampered’ isn’t what the German car manufacturers said when they were forced to declare their position on tariffs last October 2019 and all unanimously said that tariffs would be passed on to British consumers (some stated they would honour original pricing on orders placed before 31 October 2019).So, it is fair to assume that until post Brexit trade deals evolve over some time we are in for a rise in the cost of German cars.
Furthermore, it is unlikely that marketeers will allow us to knowledgeably buy a ‘German’ BMW vs a South African BMW.
As a small aside, all Golf production has or is due to return to Germany as I believe the labour unions have demanded it - not sure if this impacts the points made above but it does show that the argument is multi-variate.
Dave Hedgehog said:
franchise servicing on German cars is very expensive and out of warranty work can be mind blowing expensive at main dealers
£300+ for just an oil change, pollen filters being an extra over the service cost, 'inspection' services where they do no actual work but charge you to find faults they can correct (at least audi and VW do this)
and when you get to the high end stuff £1500 for a set of front discs and pads lol
To be fair that all main dealer's regardless of make not just the Germans£300+ for just an oil change, pollen filters being an extra over the service cost, 'inspection' services where they do no actual work but charge you to find faults they can correct (at least audi and VW do this)
and when you get to the high end stuff £1500 for a set of front discs and pads lol
Having run both BMW 118d / 320d and a couple of 530d's (all F models) over the last 7 years, and in the past having had lots of fun with fast Fords and Vauxhalls, as well as the 'classic era' of BMW from the 1980's my opinion is that the 4 cylinder BMW stuff is very much where the top spec Vauxhall / Ford game was in the 1980's. The 6 cylinder stuff in terms of running costs and what you get for your money is more like the BMW's of yore.
My F10 530d feels as well constructed and as different from the run of the mill car as my old E28 did.
My wife's 320d xDrive Touring is a very good car but there are some differences and in terms of quality and running costs is much lower on both counts than the 530d.
My F10 530d feels as well constructed and as different from the run of the mill car as my old E28 did.
My wife's 320d xDrive Touring is a very good car but there are some differences and in terms of quality and running costs is much lower on both counts than the 530d.
Dave Hedgehog said:
you really think we wont have a free trade zone? the EU need this, germany desperately as we buy about a million of their cars every year
and they know bojo is in a much stronger position now
Let’s hope for a free trade zone, I’m hoping we’re able to negotiate passporting for financial services in exchange for free trade on manufactured products.and they know bojo is in a much stronger position now
German car manufacturers only ‘desperately’ need our market for profit stability in the short term, until they reconfigure their supply chains and factory tooling for other markets should they need to.
Venturist said:
Mr Tidy said:
I'd agree with all of that, except a 3 Series has never been cheaper than a Mondeo in my experience - although I've only had 4 (no Mondeos though).
To PCP/lease which is how the vast majority of cars are purchased these days?I could be wrong of course.
I used to work in leasing for one of the UKs biggest concerns writing quotation software - a fun challenge was finding the worst deal imaginable, and this would involve a high depreciation car (there were quite a few new cars that at 3 years and 60k would have a CAP value of £25 or worse). My favourtie was a specced up Tata Safari with optional alloy wheels, this had higher monthlies than a top spec BMW 3 series touring
as the thing depreciated to nothing.Parts cost can be different on average, for sure. However, cars are so reliable these days that running costs for most cars really just mean fuel, tyres and brake pads, which are obviously the same, or very similar, between makes of car. Add to that optional main dealer servicing that's higher on BMW for example than Ford.
The other thing worth mentioning is that cars like BMW, Audi etc tend to hold their value better than Ford, Vauxhall etc, so for a given purchase cost secondhand you're typically getting a different age of car.
The other thing worth mentioning is that cars like BMW, Audi etc tend to hold their value better than Ford, Vauxhall etc, so for a given purchase cost secondhand you're typically getting a different age of car.
Everybody's got one and, in general, I don't like the styling of any of the German premium marques.
I don't think they are worth any premium, notably in servicing costs and parts prices, if you don't like the way the car looks to start with.
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
I don't think they are worth any premium, notably in servicing costs and parts prices, if you don't like the way the car looks to start with.
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
Truckosaurus said:
sasha320 said:
Post Brexit we can look forward to the return of lower numbers of German cars on our streets and the return of German cars being premium cars for wealthy buyers....
Lots of 'German' cars sold in the UK are (or have been) made outside the EU seemingly unhampered by existing tariffs eg. the USA (BMW X-series), Mexico (Golf estates), South Africa (3-series saloons, Golfs)
For example, the BMW X cars that are made in the USA in South Carolina, are 'internally' shipped from USA to Bremerhaven in Germany, and then offloaded, and 'processed' by BMW Germany and then immediately shipped to EU dealers from there, thereby, they have been shipped from the manufacturer from Germany, and within the EU.
Ah the march of prestige cars, balancing the fine line between attractiveness and affordability to attract the grunts of the world...
The difference between a ghia x 2.9 Granada and a BMW 520 was massive, but folks went for the BMW, it decimated Ford and Vauxhall. Then when they went for the mid range sierra and cavalier clients, that didn't end well did it. people got into the lease mentality they had a shiny BMW for what it would cost for a ford, they did the figures and worked on depreciation. BMW held residuals and ford didn't so cost over 24 months was similar. and they could swank it up in a 3 series....
Then the prestige manufacturers nuked the car industry with the A class and Compacts... those really set about the smaller car manufacturer who had to up the anti to remain in the fold... look at an 2000 fiesta and compare it with a 2020 fiesta... no comparison. but if they had not done that everyone would be buying high end motors. Leasing them for two years or buying ex lease low milers... win win for them. shame really as we had some great fords and Vauxhalls out there and now well they at different points to what they were back then.
The difference between a ghia x 2.9 Granada and a BMW 520 was massive, but folks went for the BMW, it decimated Ford and Vauxhall. Then when they went for the mid range sierra and cavalier clients, that didn't end well did it. people got into the lease mentality they had a shiny BMW for what it would cost for a ford, they did the figures and worked on depreciation. BMW held residuals and ford didn't so cost over 24 months was similar. and they could swank it up in a 3 series....
Then the prestige manufacturers nuked the car industry with the A class and Compacts... those really set about the smaller car manufacturer who had to up the anti to remain in the fold... look at an 2000 fiesta and compare it with a 2020 fiesta... no comparison. but if they had not done that everyone would be buying high end motors. Leasing them for two years or buying ex lease low milers... win win for them. shame really as we had some great fords and Vauxhalls out there and now well they at different points to what they were back then.
Running cost wise there isn’t much in it unless something fancy goes wrong then you have a higher labour rate and fancy parts to deal with or if you have one of the performance models, eg the parents E63 needed pads and and discs all round recently and even at an Indy was over £2k think dealer was about another £800.
AUDI main dealer will price match a quote from an Indy using proper parts so the major service on my A4 was only about £140 at the main dealer. They quoted me for about £500 of work that didn’t need doing though lol.
Also worth noting when comparing cars you can’t just look at the spec and compare like for like. For example my last daily was a well specced 2015 Octavia VRS and I had the optional uprated audio system in it. It was better than the standard system in my mates VRS but compared to the B&O in my 2013 A4 it was tinny garbage.
AUDI main dealer will price match a quote from an Indy using proper parts so the major service on my A4 was only about £140 at the main dealer. They quoted me for about £500 of work that didn’t need doing though lol.
Also worth noting when comparing cars you can’t just look at the spec and compare like for like. For example my last daily was a well specced 2015 Octavia VRS and I had the optional uprated audio system in it. It was better than the standard system in my mates VRS but compared to the B&O in my 2013 A4 it was tinny garbage.
I think the big myth is "German reliability", in my experience there is a thin veneer of quality on the parts you touch, but the actual mechanicals are as cheaply made a possible, especially on the four cylinder versions.
VAG - The four cylinder cars will use loads of oil and possibly suffer from catastrophic cam chain failure. Multitronic gearbox will fail.
BMW - Four cylinder diesels will stretch their timing chains, four cylinder petrols will suffer all sorts of injector failures that will be impossible to fix. Plastic parts used on the cooling systems will get brittle over time and eventually lead to coolant loss.
Mercedes - Using the Renault 1.5 diesel and 1.3 petrol engine in the A class.
It's all OK though, listen to that door shut noise, how the grab handle is damped and we have struts holding the bonnet up.
It's like everything nowadays, washing machines, dishwashers, cars it's all made from the same parts just with a different badge on the front.
VAG - The four cylinder cars will use loads of oil and possibly suffer from catastrophic cam chain failure. Multitronic gearbox will fail.
BMW - Four cylinder diesels will stretch their timing chains, four cylinder petrols will suffer all sorts of injector failures that will be impossible to fix. Plastic parts used on the cooling systems will get brittle over time and eventually lead to coolant loss.
Mercedes - Using the Renault 1.5 diesel and 1.3 petrol engine in the A class.
It's all OK though, listen to that door shut noise, how the grab handle is damped and we have struts holding the bonnet up.
It's like everything nowadays, washing machines, dishwashers, cars it's all made from the same parts just with a different badge on the front.
RobXjcoupe said:
Funny because the once cheap and cheerful brands now have to sell a premium product otherwise they will lose market share but the luxury brands are now making more affordable products as they are losing market share.
Question is what’s the better deal, buy a cheap luxury branded product or buy an expensive common brand product?
I think it’s easier to make something cheap a better product, lots more scope for improvement. Much harder to make a premium product cheap as that means corner cutting needs to be done.
Well, I've certainly done both in the past. Question is what’s the better deal, buy a cheap luxury branded product or buy an expensive common brand product?
I think it’s easier to make something cheap a better product, lots more scope for improvement. Much harder to make a premium product cheap as that means corner cutting needs to be done.
Bought a cheaper (old) 5 series which didn't have many toys, and for the same money I could have had many other options with better toys, or newer etc. But the 5 series ticked the boxes I wanted at the time.
More recently, and with a much bigger budget, I bought a high-spec Skoda despite it only having a 4 cylinder diesel, because it was cheaper than a similarly-aged BMW which would have also only had the 4 pot diesel, and my personal logic was at the time if I was going for a BMW, I'd have to get a 6-cyl, higher spec model, otherwise what's the point in having a BMW (or similar)
I think you can run something like a 420 cheaply but on a low mileage pcp........by the way a 116 is entry level a 420 has a fairly chunky purchase price
The ability to run a car cheaply is proportional to the mileage you do......doing the thick end of 30k miles a year there is no way running a 3\4 series is cheap compared to running an equivalent sized Hyundai for example, taking into account, servicing and depreciation etc theres no contest.
If you drive 5-8k miles a year then yes there are cheap ways into a higher priced car...but dont be fooled.
The ability to run a car cheaply is proportional to the mileage you do......doing the thick end of 30k miles a year there is no way running a 3\4 series is cheap compared to running an equivalent sized Hyundai for example, taking into account, servicing and depreciation etc theres no contest.
If you drive 5-8k miles a year then yes there are cheap ways into a higher priced car...but dont be fooled.
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