Myth about former luxury car brands
Discussion
Court_S said:
MissChief said:
If you’d asked me ten years ago if I’d have taken a Kia or Hyundai over my current car at the time, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T 180 I’d have said no instantly. Now? I’d love a Kia Stinger and have been keeping a very close eye on the i30N used pricing. It’ll be another couple of years but as soon as they hit around £10k I’ll be checking them out.
Much the same here if I'm honest - buying a Hyundai over a Golf? I'd have pissed myself laughing, but I genuinely wanted an i30N over a Golf GTI.The Stinger is a pretty interesting car. But there is still a snob factor for them to overcome. Another friend commented about how bad the i30N interior was despite driving a van or an old 1 series. I think it was the badge that he was more anti.
I'm certainly no snob having had a vRS for four years which although pretty dull was one of the best cars that I've ever had.
Apart from the terribly artificial steering feel in the Kia, I preferred it in every way over the Focus and Fiesta hire cars I've had there. Much nicer car to be inside. Nicer car to ride day to day. It made the Fords feel cheap.
RobM77 said:
Greg the Fish said:
i certainly wouldn't consider BMW a 'luxury' brand.Sold itself out a long time ago.
Inherent in that statement is the fact that they were at some point? I'm only 42, so can't speak for the early days of BMW, but in my lifetime at least I've never considered them 'luxury' per se, just a solidly made normal car, like VW. When I think 'luxury' I think Rolls Royce, Bentley etc.kiseca said:
Maybe the labour unions have thought it through better than that,
The labour unions care about one thing, securing production volume for their (German) members. The fortunes of the company or international workers are secondary to this.Bring stable staple Golf production home and allow all the other countries to produce models with potentially more volatile volume / demand.
HealeyV8 said:
I was a young lad in the 80's and worked for a while in a Honda / Alfa dealers. Back then BMW were seen by us as low quality because of the European attitude towards trim levels. Unless spec'd BMW came with rubber floor mats, window winders etc. As Brits we were used to the base model being "L" luxury which meant carpets etc.
Back in the day, if you sat in an E12 or W123 you were left in no doubt that these were a big step up from a more run of the mill saloon from one of the less prestigious manufacturers. Yes, they were sparsely equipped in their most basic forms but they felt entirely different to anything else.That was a long time ago and the differences now are really in most peoples minds.
longblackcoat said:
andrewparker said:
sasha320 said:
I predict the return of UK manufactured Ford, Vauxhall to our streets...
Can't wait.sasha320 said:
kiseca said:
Maybe the labour unions have thought it through better than that,
The labour unions care about one thing, securing production volume for their (German) members. The fortunes of the company or international workers are secondary to this.Bring stable staple Golf production home and allow all the other countries to produce models with potentially more volatile volume / demand.
To avoid import duties in SA at least, the manufacturer has to locally produce a high volume of its cars sold in the country. So it has to be high volume models. It would have to be Golfs and Polos. If they changed that to Passats or convertibles or something, they'd not make enough volume and have to pay import duty on the 12 Golfs they'd manage to sell there.
kiseca said:
What I'm saying is they'll fail. If they take the production out of South Africa, they won't need to make those cars in Germany because SA won't buy them - import duty will make them too expensive. So German production volumes won't increase to replace the stopped production in SA because the market for those cars will disappear.
To avoid import duties in SA at least, the manufacturer has to locally produce a high volume of its cars sold in the country. So it has to be high volume models. It would have to be Golfs and Polos. If they changed that to Passats or convertibles or something, they'd not make enough volume and have to pay import duty on the 12 Golfs they'd manage to sell there.
The labour unions don’t care about any of that.To avoid import duties in SA at least, the manufacturer has to locally produce a high volume of its cars sold in the country. So it has to be high volume models. It would have to be Golfs and Polos. If they changed that to Passats or convertibles or something, they'd not make enough volume and have to pay import duty on the 12 Golfs they'd manage to sell there.
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
billshoreham said:
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
However the purpose of pointing out that Labour Unions don’t care about anything but jobs for their German members was in response to the argument that the Labour Unions haven’t thought through the impact of moving Golf production to Germany. Profits globally and volume sales in SA may go down if they reconfigure / reduce / pull SA production - why would they care about the non-German workforce indeed.
Edited by sasha320 on Friday 17th January 20:38
sasha320 said:
kiseca said:
What I'm saying is they'll fail. If they take the production out of South Africa, they won't need to make those cars in Germany because SA won't buy them - import duty will make them too expensive. So German production volumes won't increase to replace the stopped production in SA because the market for those cars will disappear.
To avoid import duties in SA at least, the manufacturer has to locally produce a high volume of its cars sold in the country. So it has to be high volume models. It would have to be Golfs and Polos. If they changed that to Passats or convertibles or something, they'd not make enough volume and have to pay import duty on the 12 Golfs they'd manage to sell there.
The labour unions don’t care about any of that.To avoid import duties in SA at least, the manufacturer has to locally produce a high volume of its cars sold in the country. So it has to be high volume models. It would have to be Golfs and Polos. If they changed that to Passats or convertibles or something, they'd not make enough volume and have to pay import duty on the 12 Golfs they'd manage to sell there.
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
If they currently make 100,000 cars per annum in Germany, and 20,000 in South Africa, and those 20,000 cars made in South Africa are mostly also sold in South Africa, then the suggestion put forward was that they instead make 120,000 cars in Germany, and 0 in South Africa, thus making more work for German labourers. This would assume that they would still need 120,000 cars to support their global demand.
My response was, if they do this, the 20,000 cars sold annually in South Africa will then become expensive imports, and they won't sell 20,000. They'll hardly sell any. So production in Germany will still be 100,000, unless the company want fields full of unsold Golfs. So the change will have achieved nothing for the workers in Germany.
Edited by kiseca on Friday 17th January 21:31
sasha320 said:
billshoreham said:
The labour unions don’t care about any of that.
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
Without profits and shareholder value eventually the company will fold or make radical changes to labour contracts (in the company’s favour).They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
However the purpose of pointing out that Labour Unions don’t care about anything but jobs for their German members was in response to the argument that the Labour Unions haven’t thought through the impact of moving Golf production to Germany. Profits globally and volume sales in SA may go down if they reconfigure / reduce / pull SA production - why would they care about the non-German workforce indeed.
Edited by sasha320 on Friday 17th January 20:38
emperorburger said:
HealeyV8 said:
I was a young lad in the 80's and worked for a while in a Honda / Alfa dealers. Back then BMW were seen by us as low quality because of the European attitude towards trim levels. Unless spec'd BMW came with rubber floor mats, window winders etc. As Brits we were used to the base model being "L" luxury which meant carpets etc.
Back in the day, if you sat in an E12 or W123 you were left in no doubt that these were a big step up from a more run of the mill saloon from one of the less prestigious manufacturers. Yes, they were sparsely equipped in their most basic forms but they felt entirely different to anything else.That was a long time ago and the differences now are really in most peoples minds.
meatballs said:
I never considered the 320d I bought as luxury, was just interested in a decent rwd car to put a lot of miles on. There was thousands to choose from at 3-4 years old, coming off company car schemes etc, so seemed great value.
I would judge a lot of a cars luxury on the options it has rather than badge, I don't even have leather heated seats or a heated wheel!
Heated seats and steering wheel are on my “must have” list these days!I would judge a lot of a cars luxury on the options it has rather than badge, I don't even have leather heated seats or a heated wheel!
Along with adaptive cruise & flippy-headlights (“active high beam” in Volvo terms!)
MissChief said:
If you’d asked me ten years ago if I’d have taken a Kia or Hyundai over my current car at the time, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T 180 I’d have said no instantly. Now? I’d love a Kia Stinger and have been keeping a very close eye on the i30N used pricing. It’ll be another couple of years but as soon as they hit around £10k I’ll be checking them out.
Yup, the world is changing fast! We joined a ~8 month wait list for a Hyundai Kona EV....now heading towards 8k miles since June. Astonishing amount of kit packed in & quite good fun to drive!
Actually have a deposit on the VW iD.3 (EVs currently hold their value, so wondering about swapping later in 2020). Early signs on the specs (smaller battery/range, no HUD unit, etc!) mean we may well stick with the Kona.
I know a fella who chops in his EV pretty well every year (~50k miles pa), but hasn’t found one good enough to swap his Kona out for without paying Tesla prices.
I feel the “luxury” manufacturers will need to step up their game, or a new breed of Top Dogs will emerge, led by the likes of Hyundai and Kia. Never thought I’d find myself writing that!!
jakesmith said:
Having a chat with my parents about cars and they’re very much of the view that BMW and Mercedes are expensive luxury cars that cost a fortune to run. We’re talking about 3-4 year old entry level cars here like a 420i or C200. I don’t think they’d cost any more to run than a Focus or a Golf going to a good local non franchises dealer for work.
Modern cars are ridiculously good on fuel. I’m not talking older 6 series or SL55s here just the mass market stuff.
They seem unaware that BMW and Mercedes etc moved significantly mass market about 20+ years ago and do several ranges of cars that compete with Fords and Vauxhall’s.
In some cases you can buy a C Class for less than a similarly specified golf.
That’s my view, What do people think, who is right?
Just stumbled across this thread. Back in the day I only had BMW's, (635 and so on) but once I started collecting old cars I have stuck to Mercedes. As said, boring transport, but that's fine by me. I am just starting on my fourth Mercedes in 25 years, the first a W124 230E bought from a local family when their Dad died with 12,000 on the clock (sold at 130,000), then a 202 Estate in which I did 350,000 at a repair cost of £2,000, then a 2012 204 estate which I have passed on to SWMBO as a shopping trolley with 130,000 on the clock, and bought exactly the same, a 2014 C200CDi with 15,000 on the clock. Capable of doing nearly 900 miles in a day very comfortably at well over 40 to the gallon, even cruising at high speeds. The photo will say it all. In those 25 years my total repair bills have amounted to but £4,000. One striking thing is that I have never had to buy a new battery in all that time, and not one car has cost me over £17,000 to buy.Modern cars are ridiculously good on fuel. I’m not talking older 6 series or SL55s here just the mass market stuff.
They seem unaware that BMW and Mercedes etc moved significantly mass market about 20+ years ago and do several ranges of cars that compete with Fords and Vauxhall’s.
In some cases you can buy a C Class for less than a similarly specified golf.
That’s my view, What do people think, who is right?
Edited by lowdrag on Saturday 18th January 04:35
kiseca said:
sasha320 said:
billshoreham said:
The labour unions don’t care about any of that.
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
Without profits and shareholder value eventually the company will fold or make radical changes to labour contracts (in the company’s favour).They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
However the purpose of pointing out that Labour Unions don’t care about anything but jobs for their German members was in response to the argument that the Labour Unions haven’t thought through the impact of moving Golf production to Germany. Profits globally and volume sales in SA may go down if they reconfigure / reduce / pull SA production - why would they care about the non-German workforce indeed.
Edited by sasha320 on Friday 17th January 20:38
Goals and objectives of the German Labour Union.
Step 1: Get the SA or any other competing factory closed down.
Step 2: Secure German production for staple models e.g., Golf, SUVs etc. Let niche models like the Passat coupe and the Beetle get produced elsewhere.
Step 3: Secure employment for members at the German plant based on the full operating capacity of the factory (not on the actual demand going through the factory).
Step 4: Negotiate guaranteed pay for a 5 day week whilst only requiring workers to come in whilst there is demand for them.
How many cars produced all this equates to is management’s problem; because the Labour Unions believe that after VW has produced exactly 47 cars per year they are rolling in profit and the other x million cars sold each year are all pure profit for shareholders. No amount of open book accounting will persuade them otherwise.
It’s a mindset, not logic.
Edited by sasha320 on Saturday 18th January 05:42
mikeiow said:
Yup, the world is changing fast!
I feel the “luxury” manufacturers will need to step up their game, or a new breed of Top Dogs will emerge, led by the likes of Hyundai and Kia. Never thought I’d find myself writing that!!
I agree the world is changing fast, but I can’t ever see a new breed of Top Dogs - even if the luxury manufacturers only marginally adapt; people simply care more for brand and image than function.I feel the “luxury” manufacturers will need to step up their game, or a new breed of Top Dogs will emerge, led by the likes of Hyundai and Kia. Never thought I’d find myself writing that!!
The marketeers at Lexus, Seat and Infiniti et al will testify to that.
(Admittedly the marketeers at Skoda may have a slightly different story to tell.)
The marketing department at Kia, Hyundai, Chevrolet, Vauxhall etc. are out to lunch!
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