Myth about former luxury car brands
Discussion
One only has to step inside a Superb to acknowledge that the quality is the equivalent of cars ten times the price. The leather, the stitching, the ambience are all there. And should you buy, you will then be suitably aghast when you get your service bill to find that it is seriously too low compared to the premium brands. Certainly not in keeping with the prices others are used to paying. I would have one like a shot if it wasn't too big for my needs. Fold the rear seat down on the estate and you can quite seriously put a mattress in and sleep soundly. Owners give the marque a top rating, and they can't be wrong.
On the other hand my Mercedes are serviced by an indie. I looked up on line the price of a major service and it was £1,200. The diesel filter was £200 (bought on line, the same Bosch filter, for £40) and all the others such as cabin and oil filters were similarly priced.
On the other hand my Mercedes are serviced by an indie. I looked up on line the price of a major service and it was £1,200. The diesel filter was £200 (bought on line, the same Bosch filter, for £40) and all the others such as cabin and oil filters were similarly priced.
I agree Skodas are very impressive. My father has had a succession of them, Felicia, Fabia, Octavia, Superb and now a Yeti. All of them thoroughly decent, except for the Superb that went a step further and was really nice.
The only downside to them for me is the drivetrains aren't that interesting (like virtually everything now though). A W8 Superb, or a I5 Octavia, or a V10 TDi Yeti or anything mad like that would have been a fun project that could have happened in the past, but never will now.
If only they made the Tudor concept car a production, that was at the time a very smart looking thing.
The only downside to them for me is the drivetrains aren't that interesting (like virtually everything now though). A W8 Superb, or a I5 Octavia, or a V10 TDi Yeti or anything mad like that would have been a fun project that could have happened in the past, but never will now.
If only they made the Tudor concept car a production, that was at the time a very smart looking thing.
Kawasicki said:
Skoda. It isn’t a luxury brand. Why does my son continually ask me if we can get a Superb?
They are doing something right.
Never trust kids. For some perverse reason I took a shine to and pestered my dad to look at the Austin Princess 2200HLS due to its 6 cylinder engine, a plush trim, huge interior and that the motoring press liked the smooth ride of its hydrogas suspension. For some reason I liked the wedge shape and thought it looked particularly good in a lurid shade of metallic green.They are doing something right.
great topic here, great replies!
my take on it is that I still think BMW, Audi and Mercedes are still a good brand. I wont include Porsche as your average family man/woman don't really go for that type of brand.
a couple of years ago I was still driving around in my C220 Mercedes and thought it was great. it returned 50mpg on a run, never let me down and servicing wasn't that expensive in reality. I was a 2005 model and had 255k miles on it and it ran like a swiss watch.
I was on the lookout for a newer car and one with a better driving position. I went for VW Tiguan R-line. the reason why was because the equivalent Merc (B-class), Skoda Yeti and Nissan (qashkai) didn't offer what the VW did in the looks and spec that my budget was after. The VW has everything on it including the 4 wheel drive I was after. I ended up looking and test driving all the above and went to VW main dealer and bought the car outright. I wanted the driving position, a tailgate to sit the dog in the back and realiabilty. I think I got all of that in my car. Years previously, i'd never have had anything other than a german car and a Mercedes. I was swayed by the VW. this was 3 years ago I bought it. My old Mercedes is still plodding on (according to dvla) so the car is serving its new owner well.
if and when the VW finally calls it a day, I wouldn't hesitate on getting another. my view is pretty simple on these things. if you look around at these cars 20 years on from when they were first built, those Vauxhalls, fords and the odd Japanese cars that have survived, not only look ugly, have been through multiple owners and are on their last legs. the amount of surviving cars is a lot less than the german cars. a 20 year old german car is worth a lot more than a 20 year old ford focus. the wife had a focus a couple of years ago and i'd only get in it on 2 occasions. being picked up from the pub or I would travel in the boot only.
its funny how people stick to a particular brand. my brother has only ever owned Vauxhalls. he swears they are better than anything else on the road. ive always gone for german cars. he has owned around twice as many cars in the 30 years we have both been driving...……….
these days I
my take on it is that I still think BMW, Audi and Mercedes are still a good brand. I wont include Porsche as your average family man/woman don't really go for that type of brand.
a couple of years ago I was still driving around in my C220 Mercedes and thought it was great. it returned 50mpg on a run, never let me down and servicing wasn't that expensive in reality. I was a 2005 model and had 255k miles on it and it ran like a swiss watch.
I was on the lookout for a newer car and one with a better driving position. I went for VW Tiguan R-line. the reason why was because the equivalent Merc (B-class), Skoda Yeti and Nissan (qashkai) didn't offer what the VW did in the looks and spec that my budget was after. The VW has everything on it including the 4 wheel drive I was after. I ended up looking and test driving all the above and went to VW main dealer and bought the car outright. I wanted the driving position, a tailgate to sit the dog in the back and realiabilty. I think I got all of that in my car. Years previously, i'd never have had anything other than a german car and a Mercedes. I was swayed by the VW. this was 3 years ago I bought it. My old Mercedes is still plodding on (according to dvla) so the car is serving its new owner well.
if and when the VW finally calls it a day, I wouldn't hesitate on getting another. my view is pretty simple on these things. if you look around at these cars 20 years on from when they were first built, those Vauxhalls, fords and the odd Japanese cars that have survived, not only look ugly, have been through multiple owners and are on their last legs. the amount of surviving cars is a lot less than the german cars. a 20 year old german car is worth a lot more than a 20 year old ford focus. the wife had a focus a couple of years ago and i'd only get in it on 2 occasions. being picked up from the pub or I would travel in the boot only.
its funny how people stick to a particular brand. my brother has only ever owned Vauxhalls. he swears they are better than anything else on the road. ive always gone for german cars. he has owned around twice as many cars in the 30 years we have both been driving...……….
these days I
They do or did a nearly 300bhp Superb. There was a guy on here that wound one up to over 500bhp.
I think Skoda have done well out of people like a previous poster on this thread who think that because there is some part sharing among the VAG group then the cars are all the same between brands and you are being savvy getting the Skoda for £10-30k less.
It depends how you view things in my opinion. Yes an Octavia / Superb will cover anyone’s basic needs. Anyone who hasn’t had a new car for a while will think they are incredible. I was over the moon with my 2015 VRS having come from cars built 2000-2005. When my lease ended on that my requirements landed me in a 2013 Audi A4, so a generation behind the Skoda and yes they perform the same basic functions but the Audi just does everything a bit better. The gearbox is smoother and knob nicer to handle, other switches and bits of trim are nicer, the bits you look at like the dash and infotainment are nicer and things like the stereo (important things if you are into your music) are massively better. The Audi feels more solid, heavier doors, less exposed metal, quieter and smoother. Even silly little details like a nicer key and where you put it.
I’m not a dash fingering snob by any means, my other car is a 20 year old Subaru! But it’s these little things that make the difference between the vag brands.
It’s easy to take the mick out of people who go on about soft touch points etc but if you switch between cars that do and don’t have them you do really appreciate when you have them. My wife has a 2015 Vitara and little things like resting your elbow on the door while driving actually hurt because it’s just solid plastic. It will probably outlive my Audi but the doors are so light it feels like you are going to crumple them every time they close. The tailgate makes a hell of a clatter and bang when you shut it where my Audi does a quiet thunk.
None of these things make the Audi more functional as a car than the Suzuki but it’s just nicer. Similar things work to a lesser extent through the VAG range
I think Skoda have done well out of people like a previous poster on this thread who think that because there is some part sharing among the VAG group then the cars are all the same between brands and you are being savvy getting the Skoda for £10-30k less.
It depends how you view things in my opinion. Yes an Octavia / Superb will cover anyone’s basic needs. Anyone who hasn’t had a new car for a while will think they are incredible. I was over the moon with my 2015 VRS having come from cars built 2000-2005. When my lease ended on that my requirements landed me in a 2013 Audi A4, so a generation behind the Skoda and yes they perform the same basic functions but the Audi just does everything a bit better. The gearbox is smoother and knob nicer to handle, other switches and bits of trim are nicer, the bits you look at like the dash and infotainment are nicer and things like the stereo (important things if you are into your music) are massively better. The Audi feels more solid, heavier doors, less exposed metal, quieter and smoother. Even silly little details like a nicer key and where you put it.
I’m not a dash fingering snob by any means, my other car is a 20 year old Subaru! But it’s these little things that make the difference between the vag brands.
It’s easy to take the mick out of people who go on about soft touch points etc but if you switch between cars that do and don’t have them you do really appreciate when you have them. My wife has a 2015 Vitara and little things like resting your elbow on the door while driving actually hurt because it’s just solid plastic. It will probably outlive my Audi but the doors are so light it feels like you are going to crumple them every time they close. The tailgate makes a hell of a clatter and bang when you shut it where my Audi does a quiet thunk.
None of these things make the Audi more functional as a car than the Suzuki but it’s just nicer. Similar things work to a lesser extent through the VAG range
I test drove a Superb estate whilst owning a Mercedes E Class estate.
When I looked into the Skoda's footwell I thought there was something about the pedals' design, set up, and materials used that made them look and feel cheap.
I need to express this point of view making the forum aware of the fact that I'm a Peugeot owner who hasn't run a Mercedes since 2012 or a BMW since a company 525d back in the mid noughties prior to the credit crunch.
I have no skin in the game and am no fanboy.
I'd say Medcedes and BMWs (BMWs in particular) are still a bit special. Not so much in build quality, interior feel and general exclusivity and upmarket perception but in levels of development budget focused in dynamics and ergonomics.
There's something that bit more intuitive, user friendly, well thought out and clever about BMW dials, controls, infotainment navigation graphics etc. They also still make the effort to deliver a better driving experience.
Take the new front drive 3cylinder 1 Series. Slated by us PHers, no longer rear drive and no longer offering 6 cylinders but read across the motoring press and the concencuss seems to be that from a driver's perspective BMW's (unusual in class) multi linked supensioned front drive cars are a cut above its rivals.
I'm old enough to remember BMW prior to the 1980s when Yuppies elevated BMW to a brand desirability beyond the sum of their vehicle's parts.
I get what people saw in them. BMWs in 6 and 7 Series were incredibly aspirational cars as were the top ends of the 3 and 5 Series. This Halo effect gave base 3 and 5s an appeal where buyers would forgo the superior attributes of cars like the Granada Ghia 2.9x, Cortina 2.3 S (with Recaro front seats) the Dolomite Sprint or Rover SDI.
Being fair the base models shared the ergonomics and suspension sophistication or the higher end offerings so did have an appeal to drivers.
I toyed with buying BMs back in the 1980s but chose a Mazda RX7 Turbo over a 320i, in the 1990s I chose a Carrado 1.8 16v over a base model 318i Coupe when they first came out and years later I chose a SAAB 9/3 Vector Sport over a base 318d as a company car.
On each occasion the desire for the BMW was generated from the desirability of models further up the range and out of my budgets.
On each occasion, after test test drives, the BMWs felt underpowered, under equipped and a bit ordinary compared with my final choices.
I reckon one could easily replace the cars I am mentioning with cars of the day and everything I've just said will still stand.
When I looked into the Skoda's footwell I thought there was something about the pedals' design, set up, and materials used that made them look and feel cheap.
I need to express this point of view making the forum aware of the fact that I'm a Peugeot owner who hasn't run a Mercedes since 2012 or a BMW since a company 525d back in the mid noughties prior to the credit crunch.
I have no skin in the game and am no fanboy.
I'd say Medcedes and BMWs (BMWs in particular) are still a bit special. Not so much in build quality, interior feel and general exclusivity and upmarket perception but in levels of development budget focused in dynamics and ergonomics.
There's something that bit more intuitive, user friendly, well thought out and clever about BMW dials, controls, infotainment navigation graphics etc. They also still make the effort to deliver a better driving experience.
Take the new front drive 3cylinder 1 Series. Slated by us PHers, no longer rear drive and no longer offering 6 cylinders but read across the motoring press and the concencuss seems to be that from a driver's perspective BMW's (unusual in class) multi linked supensioned front drive cars are a cut above its rivals.
I'm old enough to remember BMW prior to the 1980s when Yuppies elevated BMW to a brand desirability beyond the sum of their vehicle's parts.
I get what people saw in them. BMWs in 6 and 7 Series were incredibly aspirational cars as were the top ends of the 3 and 5 Series. This Halo effect gave base 3 and 5s an appeal where buyers would forgo the superior attributes of cars like the Granada Ghia 2.9x, Cortina 2.3 S (with Recaro front seats) the Dolomite Sprint or Rover SDI.
Being fair the base models shared the ergonomics and suspension sophistication or the higher end offerings so did have an appeal to drivers.
I toyed with buying BMs back in the 1980s but chose a Mazda RX7 Turbo over a 320i, in the 1990s I chose a Carrado 1.8 16v over a base model 318i Coupe when they first came out and years later I chose a SAAB 9/3 Vector Sport over a base 318d as a company car.
On each occasion the desire for the BMW was generated from the desirability of models further up the range and out of my budgets.
On each occasion, after test test drives, the BMWs felt underpowered, under equipped and a bit ordinary compared with my final choices.
I reckon one could easily replace the cars I am mentioning with cars of the day and everything I've just said will still stand.
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Saturday 18th January 10:35
LuS1fer said:
However, the funniest thing is the superiority complex that some people believe such cars bestow upon you or the irrefutable belief that the car is better.
The opposite is true in my experience. The number of people who tell me my RS4 is just an overpriced Skoda and I'm a badge snob is surprisingly high. There's a definite inferiority complex amongst some owners (and no doubt others) that makes them feel obligated to tell you you bought a badge engineered, overpriced, inferior vehicle.I'm not a badge snob - my first ever brand new car was a Skoda and I own and use two sheddy fords and a K11 Micra.
sasha320 said:
Truckosaurus said:
Lots of 'German' cars sold in the UK are (or have been) made outside the EU seemingly unhampered by existing tariffs eg. the USA (BMW X-series), Mexico (Golf estates), South Africa (3-series saloons, Golfs)
It is a good point, but ‘seemingly unhampered’ isn’t what the German car manufacturers said when they were forced to declare their position on tariffs last October 2019 and all unanimously said that tariffs would be passed on to British consumers (some stated they would honour original pricing on orders placed before 31 October 2019).So, it is fair to assume that until post Brexit trade deals evolve over some time we are in for a rise in the cost of German cars.
Furthermore, it is unlikely that marketeers will allow us to knowledgeably buy a ‘German’ BMW vs a South African BMW.
As a small aside, all Golf production has or is due to return to Germany as I believe the labour unions have demanded it - not sure if this impacts the points made above but it does show that the argument is multi-variate.
Only American and Asian market Golfs were built elsewhere.
The South Africa plant builds only Polos,
sasha320 said:
Ok, one more time, then we should agree to disagree.
Goals and objectives of the German Labour Union.
Step 1: Get the SA or any other competing factory closed down.
Step 2: Secure German production for staple models e.g., Golf, SUVs etc. Let niche models like the Passat coupe and the Beetle get produced elsewhere.
Step 3: Secure employment for members at the German plant based on the full operating capacity of the factory (not on the actual demand going through the factory).
Step 4: Negotiate guaranteed pay for a 5 day week whilst only requiring workers to come in whilst there is demand for them.
How many cars produced all this equates to is management’s problem; because the Labour Unions believe that after VW has produced exactly 47 cars per year they are rolling in profit and the other x million cars sold each year are all pure profit for shareholders. No amount of open book accounting will persuade them otherwise.
It’s a mindset, not logic.
I’m no leftie but you can’t fault their approach. If I have a day at work that is less busy or not busy at all I expect to be paid. If I have absolutely no work to do then that is not my fault and there is no point being at work if I have nothing to do. These demands should force the factory to phase their production to be more consistent. The flip side is they need to accept regular reviews maybe annually, on workforce numbers and accept that if production demand has fallen they will be liable to lay off.Goals and objectives of the German Labour Union.
Step 1: Get the SA or any other competing factory closed down.
Step 2: Secure German production for staple models e.g., Golf, SUVs etc. Let niche models like the Passat coupe and the Beetle get produced elsewhere.
Step 3: Secure employment for members at the German plant based on the full operating capacity of the factory (not on the actual demand going through the factory).
Step 4: Negotiate guaranteed pay for a 5 day week whilst only requiring workers to come in whilst there is demand for them.
How many cars produced all this equates to is management’s problem; because the Labour Unions believe that after VW has produced exactly 47 cars per year they are rolling in profit and the other x million cars sold each year are all pure profit for shareholders. No amount of open book accounting will persuade them otherwise.
It’s a mindset, not logic.
Edited by sasha320 on Saturday 18th January 05:42
jakesmith said:
I’m no leftie but you can’t fault their approach. If I have a day at work that is less busy or not busy at all I expect to be paid. If I have absolutely no work to do then that is not my fault and there is no point being at work if I have nothing to do. These demands should force the factory to phase their production to be more consistent. The flip side is they need to accept regular reviews maybe annually, on workforce numbers and accept that if production demand has fallen they will be liable to lay off.
I’m not right wing but funnily enough the flip-side bit never happens...I know but you can hardly blame a Union for protecting their members. Do t hate the player hate the game. Unions shouldn’t exist and shouldn’t need to exist. In a world with fair regulation of work, unions would just be pressure / bullying groups. Problem is we don’t have fair regulation so unions exist and then exploit their position
i've always believed that people who don't like or slate something either have never had it or cannot afford it. not directed solely at cars, but at anything be it coffee, tiles or children's pushchairs.
I dislike BMW cars and would never own one, but they are one of the best cars you could part your hard earned cash with on the road. I could afford one but don't or will ever want one.
I dislike BMW cars and would never own one, but they are one of the best cars you could part your hard earned cash with on the road. I could afford one but don't or will ever want one.
jakesmith said:
I know but you can hardly blame a Union for protecting their members. Do t hate the player hate the game. Unions shouldn’t exist and shouldn’t need to exist. In a world with fair regulation of work, unions would just be pressure / bullying groups. Problem is we don’t have fair regulation so unions exist and then exploit their position
I agree we don’t have fair regulation, the system isn’t perfect and Unions were important may 50 to 100 years ago, since then legislation and the Government have picked up the agenda of pay, working conditions, equality, diversity, health & safety and anti-slavery, corruption and pretty much everything else that determines a worker’s lot.You don’t need a Union anymore to take an employer to a tribunal nor do you need a Union to have the accusation of illegal practice heard. Most processes that give the worker a voice are generally weighted toward the worker and away from the employer as well.
The system isn’t perfect but it pretty much leaves Unions with nothing to do, as evidenced by the decline in Union membership in every sector that doesn’t have a unique asset / service like e.g., tube drivers, BA pilots - where the barriers to entry mean that Unions can still effectively blackmail their employer.
If so, this line of debate is actually about what is considered to be the fair distribution of profit which is a different (political) debate again. But one thing for sure is that we are very off topic as all this has very little to do with the Myth About Former Luxury Car Brands!
Edited by sasha320 on Saturday 18th January 18:03
sasha320 said:
kiseca said:
sasha320 said:
billshoreham said:
The labour unions don’t care about any of that.
They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
Without profits and shareholder value eventually the company will fold or make radical changes to labour contracts (in the company’s favour).They just care about their members having jobs, they don’t care about profits, they don’t care about shareholder value.
[/quote)
why would they?
However the purpose of pointing out that Labour Unions don’t care about anything but jobs for their German members was in response to the argument that the Labour Unions haven’t thought through the impact of moving Golf production to Germany. Profits globally and volume sales in SA may go down if they reconfigure / reduce / pull SA production - why would they care about the non-German workforce indeed.
Edited by sasha320 on Friday 17th January 20:38
Goals and objectives of the German Labour Union.
Step 1: Get the SA or any other competing factory closed down.
Step 2: Secure German production for staple models e.g., Golf, SUVs etc. Let niche models like the Passat coupe and the Beetle get produced elsewhere.
Step 3: Secure employment for members at the German plant based on the full operating capacity of the factory (not on the actual demand going through the factory).
Step 4: Negotiate guaranteed pay for a 5 day week whilst only requiring workers to come in whilst there is demand for them.
How many cars produced all this equates to is management’s problem; because the Labour Unions believe that after VW has produced exactly 47 cars per year they are rolling in profit and the other x million cars sold each year are all pure profit for shareholders. No amount of open book accounting will persuade them otherwise.
It’s a mindset, not logic.
Edited by sasha320 on Saturday 18th January 05:42
Edited by kiseca on Saturday 18th January 21:24
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