End of petrol and hybrid
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
A Winner Is You said:
Catatafish said:
This argument assumes self driving car tech will only ever react as fast as a human when it has the potential to react way faster. Look at how mature technologies outpace humans by orders of magnitude. Development in AI can only compound that advantage.
Eventually, you will be not be able to collide with any self driving car even if you try. They will move of your path much like how birds avoid birds of prey.
This tech could also cause everyone to have a fatal crash if hacked... (some semblance of balance)
Except a bird has a full 360 degree axis in which to get out the way, whereas a car can only stop or move to the side (assuming there are no other obstacles there).Eventually, you will be not be able to collide with any self driving car even if you try. They will move of your path much like how birds avoid birds of prey.
This tech could also cause everyone to have a fatal crash if hacked... (some semblance of balance)
xjay1337 said:
Unlike Rob I have conceeded plenty of points to the EV.
Even saying if they were cheaper I could replace my daily car with one.
My rubbish points regarding infrastructure are pretty cemented because, funnily enough, nothing has changed in the last few days we've been discussing it.
Rob has never once answered let alone conceeded to any points about infrastructure, range, charge times or cost. Because everything is great for "your average user". So the 40th percentile don't matter.
See no evil.
I think most people, including yourself, have agreed that you (and others) are genuinely an “edge use case” and that, in it’s own right, doesn’t invalidate your argument/position but makes it less relevant to a general discussion on the end of ICE.Even saying if they were cheaper I could replace my daily car with one.
My rubbish points regarding infrastructure are pretty cemented because, funnily enough, nothing has changed in the last few days we've been discussing it.
Rob has never once answered let alone conceeded to any points about infrastructure, range, charge times or cost. Because everything is great for "your average user". So the 40th percentile don't matter.
See no evil.
However, gov.uk does need to take into account edge cases - I suspect we’ll see exceptions being permitted, but at a cost (increased tax, RFL, BIK, geo restrictions). Sadly, this is likely to effectively target those well-off and increasing the tax burden on the lower-end of the socio-economic is uncomfortable, even for a right-wing gov.
otolith said:
Tesla Model X should do the trick.
We'll have to wait until 2028 for it to be as old as your Audi was when you bought it, and to see if you can get it for 2k.
Tests show they use over 100% more energy when towing so effectively halving the range. That doesnt take into account lost range on a 13+year old battery.We'll have to wait until 2028 for it to be as old as your Audi was when you bought it, and to see if you can get it for 2k.
Zoobeef said:
otolith said:
Tesla Model X should do the trick.
We'll have to wait until 2028 for it to be as old as your Audi was when you bought it, and to see if you can get it for 2k.
Tests show they use over 100% more energy when towing so effectively halving the range. That doesnt take into account lost range on a 13+year old battery.We'll have to wait until 2028 for it to be as old as your Audi was when you bought it, and to see if you can get it for 2k.
There will of course be fossil fuel powered sheds around for another 20-25 years, you should be able to buy some kind of cheap petrol or diesel snotter for towing for some time yet, and eventually there will be electric snotters too.
cwn said:
Time for all petrolheads to realise that hydrogen in reciprocating piston engines can offer all the rewards of petrol without the problems. We should start an earnest campaign to lobby all politicians, everywhere, to support hydrogen as a replacement for the petroleum economy. The technology to make hydrogen with "green" electricity is already and avaiable. Changes to existing petrol engines would be relatively minor. Comments? Support?
when will people realise that hydrogen is nothing but a red herring... its been promoted by the auto industry and heavily promoted at that for one reason and one reason only.... it would enable them to keep internal combustion engines. they are desperate as they are seeing the electric car as a huge revenue killer. they need to keep engines so that you have to service it and purchase service consumables, engines need filters sparkplugs and all sorts... a battery and an electric motor equals very very little revenue generation post sale. even the extended warranty will be dead.... electric cars just do not break in the same numbers as IC engine vehicles.
the choice between an IC and a battery electric for 95% of the population is a no brainer. they will lap up reduction in costs long life and an ability to escape emission restrictions that IC vehicles will have.
The car industry has kept concentrating on petrol diesel engines much more than they should have, as they want that to continue as long as they can, however as the governments are now stepping in and forcing them through banning IC engines this is making them nervous. They are being forced into it. finally the government is seeing what it has to do to make this happen.
I haven't looked into the technology too much
But the Honda FCX Clarity for example appears to me to be a much better thing than a regular EV.
You can basically convert existing petrol stations to hydrogen and people can still enjoy the same freedom of movement and quick fill ups that they are used to with petrol and diesel.
The main problem appears to be getting hydrogen into such a state that you can store and use it.
But I think that's an avenue well worth exploring rather than the easier route of EV development.
But the Honda FCX Clarity for example appears to me to be a much better thing than a regular EV.
You can basically convert existing petrol stations to hydrogen and people can still enjoy the same freedom of movement and quick fill ups that they are used to with petrol and diesel.
The main problem appears to be getting hydrogen into such a state that you can store and use it.
But I think that's an avenue well worth exploring rather than the easier route of EV development.
ruggedscotty said:
when will people realise that hydrogen is nothing but a red herring... its been promoted by the auto industry and heavily promoted at that for one reason and one reason only.... it would enable them to keep internal combustion engines. they are desperate as they are seeing the electric car as a huge revenue killer.
they need to keep engines so that you have to service it and purchase service consumables, engines need filters sparkplugs and all sorts... a battery and an electric motor equals very very little revenue generation post sale. even the extended warranty will be dead.... electric cars just do not break in the same numbers as IC engine vehicles.
Erm no. A hydrogen vehicle doesn't use any form of combustion whatsoever. The 'engine' in a hydrogen vehicle is a traction motor - like a battery electric car or a plug-in hybrid. they need to keep engines so that you have to service it and purchase service consumables, engines need filters sparkplugs and all sorts... a battery and an electric motor equals very very little revenue generation post sale. even the extended warranty will be dead.... electric cars just do not break in the same numbers as IC engine vehicles.
The main difference is that the energy comes from a fuel cell rather than a battery pack. Said fuel cell is lighter and more compact and can be 'refilled' fairly quickly. Fuel cells have been used in spaceflight for decades so it isn't impossible.
The downsides are in handling/processing hydrogen itself - which isn't currently economically viable or practical. Then again, nor is suddenly swapping every ICE device, car, lorry, tractor, ship, digger, plant machinery, plane, helicopter or prime mover to a battery jobby - so there you go.
Worth noting Toyota putting a fair degree of effort into the field - they would not do so if there weren't some possibilities - even if the current know-how and tech isn't here as of 2020.
Edited by LandRoverManiac on Saturday 22 February 18:40
cwn said:
Time for all petrolheads to realise that hydrogen in reciprocating piston engines can offer all the rewards of petrol without the problems. We should start an earnest campaign to lobby all politicians, everywhere, to support hydrogen as a replacement for the petroleum economy. The technology to make hydrogen with "green" electricity is already and avaiable. Changes to existing petrol engines would be relatively minor. Comments? Support?
I’ll be all up for lobbying. Even if only 20% of us drivers were to lobby for something, there will be an overwhelming lot of us. Like EV enthusiasts say, more demand will bring the price down for EV, it might work for hydrogen too then.xjay1337 said:
I haven't looked into the technology too much
But the Honda FCX Clarity for example appears to me to be a much better thing than a regular EV.
You can basically convert existing petrol stations to hydrogen and people can still enjoy the same freedom of movement and quick fill ups that they are used to with petrol and diesel.
The main problem appears to be getting hydrogen into such a state that you can store and use it.
But I think that's an avenue well worth exploring rather than the easier route of EV development.
It would rather find the extra $60 for a Model 3 Performance - the Clarity is incredibly boring! But the Honda FCX Clarity for example appears to me to be a much better thing than a regular EV.
You can basically convert existing petrol stations to hydrogen and people can still enjoy the same freedom of movement and quick fill ups that they are used to with petrol and diesel.
The main problem appears to be getting hydrogen into such a state that you can store and use it.
But I think that's an avenue well worth exploring rather than the easier route of EV development.
Jimbo. said:
Whilst hydrogen can be used in piston engines, why would you want to go to all that trouble extracting, transporting and storing it (requiring a lot of energy in itself) only to piss away 60% of it as wasted heat in an inefficient internal combustion engine?
And a hydrogen combustion engine wouldn't just exhaust water, as some people like to think.Heat plus air (i.e. not just oxygen) means you get lots of other stuff like NOx too.
Home charging it is then, that’s not cheap....
https://youtu.be/YKWEn1yFIws
Hopefully people won’t use them and they will drop the cost.
https://youtu.be/YKWEn1yFIws
Hopefully people won’t use them and they will drop the cost.
Even without boris ban by 2035 manufactures are struggling to get ice vehicles through euro 6.2 regs let alone the next 2 sets of regulation ford has spent billions alone developing the 2.0 eco blue diesel engines and the eco boost range for the petrols just to meet euro 6.2 and even then they are having some serious issue on the emission sides of things.
Even vw are having to purchase fords diesel engines as they cant get there own engine through it.
Manufactures will have to go electric sooner rather than later and hybrid is the stop gap till a viable alternative can be found. Formula e is growing in popularity there will be a electric touring car series starting next year vw have ditched all ice motorsport and is proving there electric race car can beat several ice race records. Also lemans is introducing a new class in 2024/25 for electric type vehicles.
Seen a programme where one of the lorry manufactures is testing electric lorries with in effect overhead train cables to charge them on the motorway which is a pretty smart ideas pretty much like what top gear suggested in one of their programmes.
Change is coming ice is old outdated tech and we will have to move on I bet in 50 years time the next generations will wonder why we didn't do it sooner.
Even vw are having to purchase fords diesel engines as they cant get there own engine through it.
Manufactures will have to go electric sooner rather than later and hybrid is the stop gap till a viable alternative can be found. Formula e is growing in popularity there will be a electric touring car series starting next year vw have ditched all ice motorsport and is proving there electric race car can beat several ice race records. Also lemans is introducing a new class in 2024/25 for electric type vehicles.
Seen a programme where one of the lorry manufactures is testing electric lorries with in effect overhead train cables to charge them on the motorway which is a pretty smart ideas pretty much like what top gear suggested in one of their programmes.
Change is coming ice is old outdated tech and we will have to move on I bet in 50 years time the next generations will wonder why we didn't do it sooner.
xjay1337 said:
As an aside to all the EV stuff.
No one is truly bothered by EV motor racing
Fans love the sound, smoke, and drama
All of which are missing from EV.
Motor racing will die a sad death.
Are you basing that on evidence, or on your own feelings?No one is truly bothered by EV motor racing
Fans love the sound, smoke, and drama
All of which are missing from EV.
Motor racing will die a sad death.
It doesn't really appeal to me, but Formula E appears to be attracting a following of several hundred millions.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/145940/formula-e...
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