Reasons why you don’t go to a main dealer for a service
Discussion
nickfrog said:
gizlaroc said:
Main dealers are good for people who know nothing about cars.
Another generalisation.That is not a generalisation.
I can repair 90% of things on a car, with the exception of an engine rebuild or auto transmission rebuild, if I have the facilities and tools to do it. I don't always hence I need to use a garage. I do use the main dealer when I know I need their coding tools etc. to code after repair, but that is the only time.
As I say, for those who know nothing about cars, and by that I obviously mean, know cars in regards to diagnostics and repairs, which is what we are discussing, the main dealer will give you the result you want, albeit maybe not in the best way possible.
gizlaroc said:
That is not a generalisation.
It is and I can demonstrate it. I know quite a lot about cars and I still use a main dealer. I know them well, I trust them, they are competent and enthusiasts. They almost match the specialist pricing while being very close rather than 30 miles away. They help me protect the value of my car (rightly or wrongly). If there is a repair, I have a warranty, for which they have delegated authority so repairs are seamless. I wouldn't use them for brake pads or discs as it only take 45mn on the driveway and yields a significant saving. I am convinced I am not the only one in this position.
markcoznottz said:
MG CHRIS said:
Zoobeef said:
No idea why car mechanics stick it out for such crap pay.
Use those same level 3 qualifications to work on rail and go from low £20ks to £40k+ with no targets or pressure.
We had one join last year from a back street garage and he thinks he now has the best job in the world. Yet his old work colleagues either don't believe him or can't be arsed to double their income.
Me neither and this coming from said tech at a main dealer. Im 28 and had enough of the trade the other older than me cant wait to retire one is leaving end of the year at 55 another one 52 will be doing similar. Im sticking it out atm as ive just got my first house so my concentration is on that but once im more settled I will be off as well.Use those same level 3 qualifications to work on rail and go from low £20ks to £40k+ with no targets or pressure.
We had one join last year from a back street garage and he thinks he now has the best job in the world. Yet his old work colleagues either don't believe him or can't be arsed to double their income.
ks off to do whatever, mechanic becomes unpaid receptionist etc. 3rd parties come on premises, ( key man, dent man, smart repair, Valeter etc) car is blocked in, auction cars often have little fuel or battery will be dead. Can’t find keys, because they have not been tagged correctly with reg number. Customers often want to drop cars off at 8am ie before they go to work, no way owner wants to be there at 8am, (even though it’s his business), pressgangs some poor mechanic into doing it. And so it goes on. It’s amazing how many small business owners don’t actually want to be on site at thier own business premises?? Edited by markcoznottz on Saturday 27th February 14:00
However what causes the issue so many people complain about with dealers is the bonus systems in place for the techs it places getting the jobs done quick ahead of getting the jobs done right so pollen filter don't get replaced brake fluid change doesn't really happen apart from sucking it out of the reservoir and topping it up etc etc. Scrap the bonus system put the wages up and most of it will stop.
I did point this out to my last employer but I was wrong apparently hence why that was my last employer I now don't say f
k all because its utterly pointless and just makes you a target. gizlaroc said:
The problem is what the mechanics/technicians are allowed to do while working at BMW.
Many have the skills to diagnose issues, but BMW won't allow them to, they simply want the part replaced.
Why? Because of how they charge, it is often more acceptable to charge a customer £700 for a part and £300 labour than it is to charge £20 for a part and £900 for labour.
Go to an indy and that would be £20 plus £360 for labour.
Many people don't like paying for labour, paying for parts is fine, but paying for labour?? Oooh, no.
At £150 or more an hour labour you have to have a very different business model compared to an indy charging £40-60 an hour.
I know a few who have worked at main dealers and just get frustrated, it is a case of 'scan and replace'.
These guys know that rather than change say the DPF filter, simply changing a thermostat and cleaning the DPF out is all that is needed, couple of hours work and £400 all in, but no, DPF is blocked, put a new one in.
Sure that will work, for the next 10k miles till it is blocked again, but it is the wrong way of doing things.
Main dealers are good for people who know nothing about cars.
You're absolutely spot on there. I'm not a tech but I've got some good mates from my time in VW (I turned down the service manager job as I couldn't handle getting the sMany have the skills to diagnose issues, but BMW won't allow them to, they simply want the part replaced.
Why? Because of how they charge, it is often more acceptable to charge a customer £700 for a part and £300 labour than it is to charge £20 for a part and £900 for labour.
Go to an indy and that would be £20 plus £360 for labour.
Many people don't like paying for labour, paying for parts is fine, but paying for labour?? Oooh, no.
At £150 or more an hour labour you have to have a very different business model compared to an indy charging £40-60 an hour.
I know a few who have worked at main dealers and just get frustrated, it is a case of 'scan and replace'.
These guys know that rather than change say the DPF filter, simply changing a thermostat and cleaning the DPF out is all that is needed, couple of hours work and £400 all in, but no, DPF is blocked, put a new one in.
Sure that will work, for the next 10k miles till it is blocked again, but it is the wrong way of doing things.
Main dealers are good for people who know nothing about cars.
t from the techs, the st from the customer and the st from the aftersales manager!). There's no such thing as repairing a car - they are just parts fitters these days - however, one of the guys I know uses it to his advantage, learning all about the failures and how to repair them time/cost-effectively. He runs his own garage on a weekend, and many Saturdays exceed his week's wages with jobs. TDI timing belt jobs in 1hr..., and has his OEM parts account in VW so they are getting the same job done, but the same person and the same parts, just not in the VW dealer (and with Corona, there's no coffee, no courtesy car anyway) - he has an old MK4 courtesy car - and for in and around half the cost. If I discover a workaround like recently some seals for 50 quid to avoid having to buy a new VVT mechanism/timing chain case for a Golf GTI, that part retails at 550 quid in VW and they say the seals are not available separately and the only part that fails is them...gizlaroc said:
J3PTF said:
Mr Tidy said:
BMW.
But I've found an Indy who worked at Sytner for 15 years
This is the bit I don’t get. If main deadlier techs are so clueless, then do most independents normally try and promote themselves with ‘worked as a mean dealer tech for 15 years before going Indy’ or similar. Isn’t that a bit of a contradiction?But I've found an Indy who worked at Sytner for 15 years
Many have the skills to diagnose issues, but BMW won't allow them to, they simply want the part replaced.
Why? Because of how they charge, it is often more acceptable to charge a customer £700 for a part and £300 labour than it is to charge £20 for a part and £900 for labour.
Go to an indy and that would be £20 plus £360 for labour.
Many people don't like paying for labour, paying for parts is fine, but paying for labour?? Oooh, no.
At £150 or more an hour labour you have to have a very different business model compared to an indy charging £40-60 an hour.
I know a few who have worked at main dealers and just get frustrated, it is a case of 'scan and replace'.
These guys know that rather than change say the DPF filter, simply changing a thermostat and cleaning the DPF out is all that is needed, couple of hours work and £400 all in, but no, DPF is blocked, put a new one in.
Sure that will work, for the next 10k miles till it is blocked again, but it is the wrong way of doing things.
Main dealers are good for people who know nothing about cars.
This video explains it better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQeavkp5ow
nickfrog said:
gizlaroc said:
That is not a generalisation.
It is and I can demonstrate it. I know quite a lot about cars and I still use a main dealer. I know them well, I trust them, they are competent and enthusiasts. They almost match the specialist pricing while being very close rather than 30 miles away. They help me protect the value of my car (rightly or wrongly). If there is a repair, I have a warranty, for which they have delegated authority so repairs are seamless. I wouldn't use them for brake pads or discs as it only take 45mn on the driveway and yields a significant saving. I am convinced I am not the only one in this position.
Servicing as well, yeah, main dealer is fine as the majority of future purchasers 'must see' main dealer servicing.
I would argue that repairs done at a main dealer however don't really add any value at all, and in many cases where they fix the problem but not the reason, like changing DPF's etc. without working out why it is full, it is taking value away as it is not actually sorting out the issue.
Mercedes. I took in a car and asked them to quote me for replacing the copper washers on the injectors as one was leaking, and when one goes the rest will soon follow.
I don't have an injector puller for that car and so thought it would be easier to get them to do it, 20 minutes and injector, maybe 2 hours?
They couldn't do that, their work system says that if that is the cause they have to change all the injectors not just the copper washers. Plus they wanted £160 to diagnose the issue.
"Diagnose it? Open the bonnet and look, you can see the second injector blowing. The rest are fine, I just want to replace all the washers now to avoid the rest blowing."
"I'm afraid we can't do that sir, we can only repair it when it goes wrong and we replace all the injectors."
They wanted £1700.
I took it to my guy down the road, and because he had a few big jobs on he did it there and then. Less than an hour and £80 for all the injectors, new washers and stretch bolts.
The amount of customers I have in my place where the main dealer has replaced a DPF, nothing else, just the dpf, 9 times out of 10 it is a faulty thermostat that has stopped the car from doing a regen. Should have been £100 for a new stat and then the car would have started regenning again.
But no, £1500 for a new DPF fitted.
lyonspride said:
There's a reason they do that, profit is part of it, but there's also the issue that customers expect things to be changed, if a tech tightens a few screws, cleans a part and only charges labour, then very often the customer is going to feel like they've been ripped off, charged an hours labour for nothing at all, because there is nothing they can see that looks any different.
This video explains it better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQeavkp5ow
Yeah, that was sort of my point when I said people seem to have some aversion to paying for labour. This video explains it better than I can https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQeavkp5ow
£1000 for and hours labour and 5 parts is OK, but £20 for a small part and £300 for labour and they are jarred off.
It is bizarre.
gizlaroc said:
Well if you have a warranty of course you will use them for repairs, it is covered under warranty.
Servicing as well, yeah, main dealer is fine as the majority of future purchasers 'must see' main dealer servicing.
I agree. It can be a no brainer and little to do with knowing or not knowing about cars. Servicing as well, yeah, main dealer is fine as the majority of future purchasers 'must see' main dealer servicing.
Daveb257 said:
So summarise 26 pages then:
-Some people like dealers
-Some people dislike dealers
-Some people like indies
-Some people dislike indies
-Some dealers are good/some bad
-Some indies are good/some bad
Missed anything ?
Yes, you missed that this is a discussion forum, people like discussing, not just summarising to a conclusion. -Some people like dealers
-Some people dislike dealers
-Some people like indies
-Some people dislike indies
-Some dealers are good/some bad
-Some indies are good/some bad
Missed anything ?
mercedeslimos said:
You're absolutely spot on there. I'm not a tech but I've got some good mates from my time in VW (I turned down the service manager job as I couldn't handle getting the st from the techs, the st from the customer and the st from the aftersales manager!). There's no such thing as repairing a car - they are just parts fitters these days - however, one of the guys I know uses it to his advantage, learning all about the failures and how to repair them time/cost-effectively. He runs his own garage on a weekend, and many Saturdays exceed his week's wages with jobs. TDI timing belt jobs in 1hr..., and has his OEM parts account in VW so they are getting the same job done, but the same person and the same parts, just not in the VW dealer (and with Corona, there's no coffee, no courtesy car anyway) - he has an old MK4 courtesy car - and for in and around half the cost. If I discover a workaround like recently some seals for 50 quid to avoid having to buy a new VVT mechanism/timing chain case for a Golf GTI, that part retails at 550 quid in VW and they say the seals are not available separately and the only part that fails is them...
Is he local....Im in Dorset!t from the techs, the st from the customer and the st from the aftersales manager!). There's no such thing as repairing a car - they are just parts fitters these days - however, one of the guys I know uses it to his advantage, learning all about the failures and how to repair them time/cost-effectively. He runs his own garage on a weekend, and many Saturdays exceed his week's wages with jobs. TDI timing belt jobs in 1hr..., and has his OEM parts account in VW so they are getting the same job done, but the same person and the same parts, just not in the VW dealer (and with Corona, there's no coffee, no courtesy car anyway) - he has an old MK4 courtesy car - and for in and around half the cost. If I discover a workaround like recently some seals for 50 quid to avoid having to buy a new VVT mechanism/timing chain case for a Golf GTI, that part retails at 550 quid in VW and they say the seals are not available separately and the only part that fails is them...Dealers are like the mafia with servicing "oh its approved so the Audi approved 34 pound window wiper we've rung specially to ask if you want it done with us means you won't void warranty"
Just a thought but wouldn't it be a good idea for PH to have an independent servicing page so we could get good recommendations?
fourstardan said:
Just a thought but wouldn't it be a good idea for PH to have an independent servicing page so we could get good recommendations?
Yes & No.We’ve had all of this on the TVR part of this forum years back. A bunch of guys recommended one firm over another, then for whatever reason, things go a bit south with the recently recommended outfit and people find out that the new firm is not quite as good as people were first led to believe.
I suppose as seen as neither firm exists any more in its original guise, I can say Raceprooved vs RT Racing without suffering the wrath of the Mods.
mercedeslimos said:
There's no such thing as repairing a car - they are just parts fitters these days
Agree with this 100%. One of my second go to guys for car repairs is an old boy outfit who are motor engineers. On the right hand side of their workshop are the old signs, drill stands, lathes, welding gear, fabrication table, stock of metal and aluminium etc all gathering dust.The old boy says that everything has changed. Manufacturers parts are made so they are hard to, or cannot be repaired and now they "just fit parts" when something breaks or wears out.
I had a 6 year old Peugeot. Took it to the dealers for a service. Had a terrible experience.
Found a place near where I worked which seemed to be new. I took it there and had a much better experience. I took it there so often the poor bloke running it (Liam) recognises my voice now.
I bought a 6 month old Seat. Had it serviced at the local Seat dealers for the first 3 years. They're very pleasant and competent in there and quite local but now its slightly older I take it to Liam. As he's an ex-VW chief tech I think he appreciates a VAG car.
I don't work near him any more and he's not much cheaper but I'd prefer to spend my money at an independent who I've built up a relationship with than a main dealer even if one is walkable from my house and the other is 6 miles away.
Found a place near where I worked which seemed to be new. I took it there and had a much better experience. I took it there so often the poor bloke running it (Liam) recognises my voice now.
I bought a 6 month old Seat. Had it serviced at the local Seat dealers for the first 3 years. They're very pleasant and competent in there and quite local but now its slightly older I take it to Liam. As he's an ex-VW chief tech I think he appreciates a VAG car.
I don't work near him any more and he's not much cheaper but I'd prefer to spend my money at an independent who I've built up a relationship with than a main dealer even if one is walkable from my house and the other is 6 miles away.
SJR said:
Given up on a local BMW franchise as they admit to no longer having the technical experience and staff to replace a time expired cambelt on a 30 year old 20k mile Z series. The service desk were unable to "read" the ignition key to quote for the work (it was bemusing to watch) and all modern BMW's suposedly have timing chains.
I don't think I'd be happy having a dealership working on an M20 these days. Needs to be someone that did them when they were new, so they know what's good and what's not.
My wife took her 2008 Focus 1.8 Zetec Sport to the nearest Ford main dealer for her usual service and MOT last week, battery was flat on the morning so they come and got it too..
£279 for:
New 17" tyre fitted
One tyre repaired (slow puncture)
MOT
Service
Kept overnight to check battery condition
Their standard service package includes 12 months AA recovery (full package including home start).
They've been family run for decades and run various old Fords in rallying etc, so I guess we've got it good.
No complaints there, not many indies who would do all that + the cost to my wife of a full AA package for under £300. I get my little Citigo serviced/MOT at a local indie and I don't think it's ever cost less than £300!
£279 for:
New 17" tyre fitted
One tyre repaired (slow puncture)
MOT
Service
Kept overnight to check battery condition
Their standard service package includes 12 months AA recovery (full package including home start).
They've been family run for decades and run various old Fords in rallying etc, so I guess we've got it good.
No complaints there, not many indies who would do all that + the cost to my wife of a full AA package for under £300. I get my little Citigo serviced/MOT at a local indie and I don't think it's ever cost less than £300!
Edited by ch37 on Saturday 6th March 22:19
ch37 said:
I get my little Citigo serviced/MOT at a local indie and I don't think it's ever cost less than £300!
If that's your reference point then most garages will seem cheap! I paid less than that for a major service and MOT on my old Merc at a Merc specialist.No idea what Ford pay, but a Mitsubishi dealer told me it costs them £20 to renew the full pan-european Mitsubishi Assistance Plan. If the RAC cover Ford offer is pretty basic, it might cost them a fiver. It could even be pay per use, so doesn’t cost anything up front.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Sunday 7th March 07:55
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