Reasons why you don’t go to a main dealer for a service
Discussion
valiant said:
bolidemichael said:
As an ex-engineer earlier stated, request the replaced components to be returned with the vehicle.
From my perspective, finding a good indy is a combination of fortune and frustration.
No guarantee that it’s your actual part you’re getting back.From my perspective, finding a good indy is a combination of fortune and frustration.
rosetank said:
Because they use 18 year old apprentices to carry out all the crap jobs, and when a car gets to a certain age unless they have a guy left over from that era, they won’t know as much as a specialist, who would see many issues more frequently. Also, I’ve never met a main dealer yet who would take the proper time to do things and advise on preventative maintenance. Obviously the main dealer has to tow the party line that everything is suitably robust. Lastly labour rates. Why would I want a less informed, less interested mechanic loose on my car?
They can't recommend preventative maintenance as it would mean they make less money.rosetank said:
jamoor said:
They can't recommend preventative maintenance as it would mean they make less money.
Hence why 
Who better to prescribe preventative maintenance than the people who designed and built the thing in the first place? Which is why franchised dealers will adhere to the manufacturer's recommendations.
Once you get outside the manufacturer's recommendations then one man's preventative maintenance fetish is another man's unnecesary upsell: Coolant additive? Air conditioning service? We recommend changing the water pump at the same time as the cambelt, even though your car has only done 40000 miles, sir.
Maybe there should be some guy with a nylon shirt and a set of feeler gauges who knows better than the factory who built it and can adjudicate?
If you're a decent mechanic you won't be working for a main dealer.
Last time mine was in it took four attempts to replace a piece of trim (by the interior light).
1/ Wrong colour was ordered
2/ Trim was sent back to HO Dispatch
3/ Fitted
4/ Fitted and tested this time. This was after attempt 3, all fitted but they didn't test it... and when I did it didn't work.
Was in for a service before. For some reason they adjusted the tyre pressures to 35psi all round.
Car before was a Ford. Boot wouldn't lock. Took them a full week to find out why.
Once had a Fiat and I mentioned two rear windows weren't demisting with climate. Upon checking no air flow was coming out of the vents. I was charged 30mins labour to tell me the vents were dummy. (Refused to pay that one). They did have the final laugh. Next service I did and they had over-tightened the sump plug cracking the sump but covered the crack in sealant. Knew it was them as they were the only ones who had serviced it in its lifetime.
Last time mine was in it took four attempts to replace a piece of trim (by the interior light).
1/ Wrong colour was ordered
2/ Trim was sent back to HO Dispatch
3/ Fitted
4/ Fitted and tested this time. This was after attempt 3, all fitted but they didn't test it... and when I did it didn't work.
Was in for a service before. For some reason they adjusted the tyre pressures to 35psi all round.
Car before was a Ford. Boot wouldn't lock. Took them a full week to find out why.
Once had a Fiat and I mentioned two rear windows weren't demisting with climate. Upon checking no air flow was coming out of the vents. I was charged 30mins labour to tell me the vents were dummy. (Refused to pay that one). They did have the final laugh. Next service I did and they had over-tightened the sump plug cracking the sump but covered the crack in sealant. Knew it was them as they were the only ones who had serviced it in its lifetime.
A1VDY said:
Not having main dealer services and therefore the service book stamped up can seriously damage the resale value of some makes and invalidate warranties.
With trade experience I can assure you that this makes little difference after three years (provided there is evidence of servicing) . Clearly, poster is correct about seriously posh stuff, but for mainstream cars it ceases to be important. The next sales garage is much too keen to sell you a new(ish) one to fret about that.Wooda80 said:
If you really think about it then a business would much rather take some money off you today ( for preventative maintenance ) than risk the uncertainty you will come back and spend a larger amount in the future when in fact you may no longer own the car or choose to take it elsewhere.
Who better to prescribe preventative maintenance than the people who designed and built the thing in the first place? Which is why franchised dealers will adhere to the manufacturer's recommendations.
Once you get outside the manufacturer's recommendations then one man's preventative maintenance fetish is another man's unnecesary upsell: Coolant additive? Air conditioning service? We recommend changing the water pump at the same time as the cambelt, even though your car has only done 40000 miles, sir.
Maybe there should be some guy with a nylon shirt and a set of feeler gauges who knows better than the factory who built it and can adjudicate?
Main dealers work to strict times, they barely give them the minutes to safely complete the jobs. Also, I’d put both my ‘nylon shirted’ guys up against any main dealer, they were trained at the factory and like most left due to epic fWho better to prescribe preventative maintenance than the people who designed and built the thing in the first place? Which is why franchised dealers will adhere to the manufacturer's recommendations.
Once you get outside the manufacturer's recommendations then one man's preventative maintenance fetish is another man's unnecesary upsell: Coolant additive? Air conditioning service? We recommend changing the water pump at the same time as the cambelt, even though your car has only done 40000 miles, sir.
Maybe there should be some guy with a nylon shirt and a set of feeler gauges who knows better than the factory who built it and can adjudicate?
kwittery to set up their own businesses.Very much down to personal experience.
I have had fairly new cars (VW, Audi, Saab) over the last 15 years.
Nobody likes paying for car servicing and repairs, just as we don't like paying for a boiler service or other house repairs.
I am not aware that I have actually been ripped off or conned (aside from the cost) by a main dealer.
Took my leased Audi to a local fast fit place to have new brake pads fitted (about £40 cheaper than the dealer), no issues. However, despite saying that they could remove a warning light with their own diagnostic equipment, they couldn't.
When I took it to Audi they gave me the "well, you shouldn't have taken it to a non main dealer should you, as they don't know an Audi like we do" they did the service and removed the warning light.
I have heard the usual horror stories about VW, MB, Vauxhall dealers, and some independent garages too.
I don't care for the main dealer gloss, glitz and the shiny blue suits and brown shoes brigade, but feel that they do know my car better than Fred at QuickFit (other fast fit chains are available)
From experience Derby Audi have always looked after me very well in terms of service, courtesy, and general assistance when I needed it. Not cheap obviously, but would take my Audi there again if I get another one.
I have had fairly new cars (VW, Audi, Saab) over the last 15 years.
Nobody likes paying for car servicing and repairs, just as we don't like paying for a boiler service or other house repairs.
I am not aware that I have actually been ripped off or conned (aside from the cost) by a main dealer.
Took my leased Audi to a local fast fit place to have new brake pads fitted (about £40 cheaper than the dealer), no issues. However, despite saying that they could remove a warning light with their own diagnostic equipment, they couldn't.
When I took it to Audi they gave me the "well, you shouldn't have taken it to a non main dealer should you, as they don't know an Audi like we do" they did the service and removed the warning light.
I have heard the usual horror stories about VW, MB, Vauxhall dealers, and some independent garages too.
I don't care for the main dealer gloss, glitz and the shiny blue suits and brown shoes brigade, but feel that they do know my car better than Fred at QuickFit (other fast fit chains are available)
From experience Derby Audi have always looked after me very well in terms of service, courtesy, and general assistance when I needed it. Not cheap obviously, but would take my Audi there again if I get another one.
littlebasher said:
I took one of our cars to a main dealer in Sheffield for a service.
Turned up later in the day, paid for the work done and discovered the car parked in the same spot that it was in when i dropped it off. Although that could easily have been a coincidence, it roused my suspicions and a quick check under the bonnet confirmed that the car hadn't been touched.
Half hearted apology from the service desk who would rearrange a service for the following week. Couldn't be less bothered, begrudgingly refunded me and offered a mediocre discount on the next one.
Cheeky fkers wanted me to pay for the courtesy car again as well
Weirdly a mate's M2 BMW had been serviced by a local main dealer . He kept getting alarms for servicing on the dash. He works shifts and took it , on a Saturday to a place locally that maps and mods his car . They went into the software and found nothing had been reset after the service. Also, they investigated further and believe the oil filter hadnt been removed ( guessing was still oily and dirty case and not clean and oil was black as night. Sure it wouldnt go black in 200 miles ? , its not like its a diesel.................. They carried out the service and that's where his main dealer service history has ended.......Turned up later in the day, paid for the work done and discovered the car parked in the same spot that it was in when i dropped it off. Although that could easily have been a coincidence, it roused my suspicions and a quick check under the bonnet confirmed that the car hadn't been touched.
Half hearted apology from the service desk who would rearrange a service for the following week. Couldn't be less bothered, begrudgingly refunded me and offered a mediocre discount on the next one.
Cheeky f
kers wanted me to pay for the courtesy car again as wellHammer67 said:
From having worked in dealerships I struggle to understand how this came to pass.
I get that nothing was done, a simple error possibly, but how did it get invoiced?
The job card would have been blank, no parts booked to it and no technicians time, notes, or signature etc.
To produce an invoice with none of that is both difficult and a deliberate act of falsification.
In the 25 odd years I was in the game I don`t recall a service advisor mickeying up invoices to cover up mistakes.
I do recall Service Managers admitting to and apologising for errors of omission when such things occurred.
Remember, that car could have a serious/dangerous fault. The dealer has a duty of care to find and report on these to the customer as part of the job. Allowing a car to leave the dealership having charged for, but not carried out, a service could come back to bite them very deeply in the arse should something bad happen.
Also this practice, if discovered, would not be tolerated by any manufacturer, so would jeopardise the dealers franchise. Plus a dealer holding a franchise, must check for and carry out any outstanding recalls, for every car that comes in, failing to do so renders the dealer liable should something bad happen as a result of that failure.
I`m not doubting this happened, but do not believe the practice is widespread or common, certainly where I worked it would not have been tolerated and could only have been done by a rogue service advisor acting alone. And even then it would have been picked up on as all job cards had to be allocated to, time stamped and signed off by a tech.
The slightly lower level version of this is alive and well though. I get that nothing was done, a simple error possibly, but how did it get invoiced?
The job card would have been blank, no parts booked to it and no technicians time, notes, or signature etc.
To produce an invoice with none of that is both difficult and a deliberate act of falsification.
In the 25 odd years I was in the game I don`t recall a service advisor mickeying up invoices to cover up mistakes.
I do recall Service Managers admitting to and apologising for errors of omission when such things occurred.
Remember, that car could have a serious/dangerous fault. The dealer has a duty of care to find and report on these to the customer as part of the job. Allowing a car to leave the dealership having charged for, but not carried out, a service could come back to bite them very deeply in the arse should something bad happen.
Also this practice, if discovered, would not be tolerated by any manufacturer, so would jeopardise the dealers franchise. Plus a dealer holding a franchise, must check for and carry out any outstanding recalls, for every car that comes in, failing to do so renders the dealer liable should something bad happen as a result of that failure.
I`m not doubting this happened, but do not believe the practice is widespread or common, certainly where I worked it would not have been tolerated and could only have been done by a rogue service advisor acting alone. And even then it would have been picked up on as all job cards had to be allocated to, time stamped and signed off by a tech.
"We do a 240 point check or your car, which is why the service is expensive"
"Did that 240 point check show up the knackered wheel bearing that is clearly wobbly?".
"Er, no".
"So that 240 point check thing is a lie isn't it?".
(per my example earlier in the thread). Main dealers take money for not doing work. The above is a gross example (taking money for doing no work at all), but the lower level stuff happens all the time. It's ingrained in the culture, so it comes as no surprise that "not doing anything" happens as well.
rosetank said:
Main dealers work to strict times, they barely give them the minutes to safely complete the jobs. Also, I’d put both my ‘nylon shirted’ guys up against any main dealer, they were trained at the factory and like most left due to epic fkwittery to set up their own businesses.
I am a big supporter of specialists and note all the main dealer nightmares. My only concern, as time goes on what CPD they have access to for latest vehicles?kwittery to set up their own businesses.A bit of a non sequitur, this thread, isn't it? I checked here in France, just out of curiosity, the price of a major service for my C Class Mercedes. €1,200 was the figure on the internet. Broken down, they wanted €200 for the diesel filter, plus the oil filter, the pollen filter and so on. Of the €1,200 €800 was parts They quoted 0ver €450 to change the brake pads if needed. From an indie the Bosch pads, front and back, would be €65 plus labour, the same Bosch fuel filter was not €200 but €10 (Bosch of course) the pollen filter €26 and not €90, and so on. Then consider that the Mercedes labour rate is €120 per hour and an indie around €60. In the last 26 years and but three Mercedes, not one of my cars has seen the inside of a Mercedes dealer. Even when the aircon compressor failed I checked, and they wanted €1,400 (ten years ago) to change and regas. A bit of research showed that it was an American part rebranded by Mercedes, and would cost $500 plus shipping. I know my local garage man, and trust him with our two 204 estates, both of which continue to give good service.
Had a clutch replaced under warranty as the slave cylinder was leaking.
Noticed the following week that the inside of the wheel was covered in CV grease. The outer CV joint was torn, leaking all the grease out. Obviously ripped when the driveshaft was refitted.
Took it back to have a new driveshaft.
Went to collect the car and as I drove out of the parking space could hear front suspension top mount graunching, They had damaged the top mount when refitting driveshaft. They left the wheel still covered in CV grease.
Booked in for a new water pump under warranty. Notwithstanding the obvious leakage, they needed the car for a day to diagnose.
I took the car in, having arranged to collect at 5pm, having ensured they had all the parts in stock. Its a 5 hour job, so took car in previous day so the car was cold to work on.
I happened to pass the garage around 2pm on the day it was being worked on, to notice my car hadn't moved from the car park.
I called them up from their car park and asked how my car was progressing. "Oh, it's been worked on now sir".
When I enqiured how they were doing that when it was in the car park still, I was told they had drained the coolant and were letting in settle..
They seemed quite surprised when I walked into the reception 10 seconds later and asked for my keys.
I drove my car away, amazingly with the coolant still full. There was a bit more of a conversation with the service 'advisor', but you get the idea.
That's just one of the reasons why I take my car to a trusted indie.
Noticed the following week that the inside of the wheel was covered in CV grease. The outer CV joint was torn, leaking all the grease out. Obviously ripped when the driveshaft was refitted.
Took it back to have a new driveshaft.
Went to collect the car and as I drove out of the parking space could hear front suspension top mount graunching, They had damaged the top mount when refitting driveshaft. They left the wheel still covered in CV grease.
Booked in for a new water pump under warranty. Notwithstanding the obvious leakage, they needed the car for a day to diagnose.
I took the car in, having arranged to collect at 5pm, having ensured they had all the parts in stock. Its a 5 hour job, so took car in previous day so the car was cold to work on.
I happened to pass the garage around 2pm on the day it was being worked on, to notice my car hadn't moved from the car park.
I called them up from their car park and asked how my car was progressing. "Oh, it's been worked on now sir".
When I enqiured how they were doing that when it was in the car park still, I was told they had drained the coolant and were letting in settle..
They seemed quite surprised when I walked into the reception 10 seconds later and asked for my keys.
I drove my car away, amazingly with the coolant still full. There was a bit more of a conversation with the service 'advisor', but you get the idea.
That's just one of the reasons why I take my car to a trusted indie.
Way way way back - I took my then 3 year old E39 M5 to a dealer as the EML had come on. It was about 4 months after I'd bought it via non BMW dealer...the car had about 35k miles on the clock.
I left the car with the BMW dealer and rang them a little later in the day and they'd diagnosed by reading the codes that the car needed a "replacement vanos unit sir, and as it's a V8 it's best to do both banks"...
They quoted circa £5k... I said thanks but no thanks and found a local Indy who diagnosed a faulty Lamda sensor... £126 fitted.
The same dealer had previously wanted to replace the whole wiring loom in the car when I asked them to look at the electric passenger seat as it couldn't be moved... it actually turned out to be single wire under the seat that was broken... For doing the wiring loom they were asking £2k... they got told to repair and not replace. In the end they did the work for £150.
After I picked it up from them having had the seat sorted I found out the wipers weren't working, I took it back and they sorted the wipers but then I found that the horn wasn't working.. eventually after a rather heated discussion with the service manager it transpired they'd "borrowed" a fuse from the wipers and forgot to put it back and then had simply moved the fuse from the horn to the wipers without putting one in the horn slot...
I also found a few years later that they'd used silicon mastic to attach a new passenger wing mirror glass to the internal workings instead of aligning it and using the slip collar inside the housing... thankfully the cables stopped the glass crashing to the ground when the silicon failed...
Absolute bunch of lazy jokers....
16 years later I'm still using the same Indy ... He's done every service on that car which I took up to 232k miles in the 10 years I ran it (so much for a new Vanos), and then the replacement car which he's looked after since 2014... so has benefited greatly thanks to a BMW dealer service department who provided a pitiful level of service at an inflated cost....
He has a waiting room, granted no donuts and the coffee is provided in a chipped mug, but he has a couple of old sheds for courtesy cars however for the peace of mind and trust he is worth every penny...
I left the car with the BMW dealer and rang them a little later in the day and they'd diagnosed by reading the codes that the car needed a "replacement vanos unit sir, and as it's a V8 it's best to do both banks"...
They quoted circa £5k... I said thanks but no thanks and found a local Indy who diagnosed a faulty Lamda sensor... £126 fitted.
The same dealer had previously wanted to replace the whole wiring loom in the car when I asked them to look at the electric passenger seat as it couldn't be moved... it actually turned out to be single wire under the seat that was broken... For doing the wiring loom they were asking £2k... they got told to repair and not replace. In the end they did the work for £150.
After I picked it up from them having had the seat sorted I found out the wipers weren't working, I took it back and they sorted the wipers but then I found that the horn wasn't working.. eventually after a rather heated discussion with the service manager it transpired they'd "borrowed" a fuse from the wipers and forgot to put it back and then had simply moved the fuse from the horn to the wipers without putting one in the horn slot...
I also found a few years later that they'd used silicon mastic to attach a new passenger wing mirror glass to the internal workings instead of aligning it and using the slip collar inside the housing... thankfully the cables stopped the glass crashing to the ground when the silicon failed...
Absolute bunch of lazy jokers....
16 years later I'm still using the same Indy ... He's done every service on that car which I took up to 232k miles in the 10 years I ran it (so much for a new Vanos), and then the replacement car which he's looked after since 2014... so has benefited greatly thanks to a BMW dealer service department who provided a pitiful level of service at an inflated cost....
He has a waiting room, granted no donuts and the coffee is provided in a chipped mug, but he has a couple of old sheds for courtesy cars however for the peace of mind and trust he is worth every penny...
For me the ONLY reason I avoid dealerships, is that I know the technicians don't have enough allocated time to complete jobs to a high standard, so they cut corners quite a lot, sometimes to the point where your car won't actually get a service, just a stamp in the service book.
Office bods trying to dictate to technical people on how to do their job, and giving them "targets", simply NEVER works. It only takes one seized bolt on a brake caliper and that could be 2hours down the drain, OR the customer having to fork out for a new caliper because the technician took the fast route and cut it off with an angle grinder.
Office bods trying to dictate to technical people on how to do their job, and giving them "targets", simply NEVER works. It only takes one seized bolt on a brake caliper and that could be 2hours down the drain, OR the customer having to fork out for a new caliper because the technician took the fast route and cut it off with an angle grinder.
Edited by lyonspride on Monday 17th February 12:40
It's a numbers game. Sooner or later we'll all become victim to spectacular mindfkery from main dealer service departments. But it's how they deal with it and when things go wrong the slopey shoulders and denial often come out. That's what pisses most people off - not taking responsibility.
Two examples:
(1) I picked the Clubman up from my Romanian mechanic after he serviced it. As he handed over the keys he noticed a dent in the front door. Profuse apologies were forthcoming and he would arrange for his dent guy to call me and fix it. I said no, that was caused by a numbnut in a car park about 2 months earlier.
(2) Early 90's. My Dad had an AMG E36. I was driving along and saw it in a pub car park at lunchtime. Now alarm bells. My Dad is teetotal and never visits pubs. And he simply wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere as he's a townie. I called him up and he said that he had dropped the car off for a service. He called the service department who advised him that the service had been completed and the car was ready! I got a call back and I said he should come out with the spare key and collect it. So I blocked it in. Half an hour later a couple of sharp suits emerged, saw that I was blocking them and asked me to move. I said no, we're taking the car back. Cue furious interaction until my Mum & Dad turned up a few minutes later. A check of the oil showed that no service was carried out, no stamp in the book and no pristine new oil filter. The spectacular parts? The service department who said everything was ready and the two salesmen who denied taking the car out for lunch.
kery from main dealer service departments. But it's how they deal with it and when things go wrong the slopey shoulders and denial often come out. That's what pisses most people off - not taking responsibility.Two examples:
(1) I picked the Clubman up from my Romanian mechanic after he serviced it. As he handed over the keys he noticed a dent in the front door. Profuse apologies were forthcoming and he would arrange for his dent guy to call me and fix it. I said no, that was caused by a numbnut in a car park about 2 months earlier.
(2) Early 90's. My Dad had an AMG E36. I was driving along and saw it in a pub car park at lunchtime. Now alarm bells. My Dad is teetotal and never visits pubs. And he simply wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere as he's a townie. I called him up and he said that he had dropped the car off for a service. He called the service department who advised him that the service had been completed and the car was ready! I got a call back and I said he should come out with the spare key and collect it. So I blocked it in. Half an hour later a couple of sharp suits emerged, saw that I was blocking them and asked me to move. I said no, we're taking the car back. Cue furious interaction until my Mum & Dad turned up a few minutes later. A check of the oil showed that no service was carried out, no stamp in the book and no pristine new oil filter. The spectacular parts? The service department who said everything was ready and the two salesmen who denied taking the car out for lunch.
vikingaero said:
It's a numbers game. Sooner or later we'll all become victim to spectacular mindfkery from main dealer service departments. But it's how they deal with it and when things go wrong the slopey shoulders and denial often come out. That's what pisses most people off - not taking responsibility.
Two examples:
(1) I picked the Clubman up from my Romanian mechanic after he serviced it. As he handed over the keys he noticed a dent in the front door. Profuse apologies were forthcoming and he would arrange for his dent guy to call me and fix it. I said no, that was caused by a numbnut in a car park about 2 months earlier.
(2) Early 90's. My Dad had an AMG E36. I was driving along and saw it in a pub car park at lunchtime. Now alarm bells. My Dad is teetotal and never visits pubs. And he simply wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere as he's a townie. I called him up and he said that he had dropped the car off for a service. He called the service department who advised him that the service had been completed and the car was ready! I got a call back and I said he should come out with the spare key and collect it. So I blocked it in. Half an hour later a couple of sharp suits emerged, saw that I was blocking them and asked me to move. I said no, we're taking the car back. Cue furious interaction until my Mum & Dad turned up a few minutes later. A check of the oil showed that no service was carried out, no stamp in the book and no pristine new oil filter. The spectacular parts? The service department who said everything was ready and the two salesmen who denied taking the car out for lunch.
^^kery from main dealer service departments. But it's how they deal with it and when things go wrong the slopey shoulders and denial often come out. That's what pisses most people off - not taking responsibility.Two examples:
(1) I picked the Clubman up from my Romanian mechanic after he serviced it. As he handed over the keys he noticed a dent in the front door. Profuse apologies were forthcoming and he would arrange for his dent guy to call me and fix it. I said no, that was caused by a numbnut in a car park about 2 months earlier.
(2) Early 90's. My Dad had an AMG E36. I was driving along and saw it in a pub car park at lunchtime. Now alarm bells. My Dad is teetotal and never visits pubs. And he simply wouldn't be in the middle of nowhere as he's a townie. I called him up and he said that he had dropped the car off for a service. He called the service department who advised him that the service had been completed and the car was ready! I got a call back and I said he should come out with the spare key and collect it. So I blocked it in. Half an hour later a couple of sharp suits emerged, saw that I was blocking them and asked me to move. I said no, we're taking the car back. Cue furious interaction until my Mum & Dad turned up a few minutes later. A check of the oil showed that no service was carried out, no stamp in the book and no pristine new oil filter. The spectacular parts? The service department who said everything was ready and the two salesmen who denied taking the car out for lunch.
Late 90's huh? It's still no different now, I think if more owners knew more about their car, we'd find that many cars that go in for a dealer service, actually have nothing done to them bar being jet washed.
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