Holden axed by GM

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Discussion

Gareth9702

370 posts

131 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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aeropilot said:
Kawasicki said:
Hames Junt said:
No-one cares, could see this happening years ago, yet Australians, as very adolescent people, worshipped at the altar of unsophistication... still do.
Not actually true.

Both local Holden and Ford developed products were more sophisticated than their mainstream competition European and USA equivalents.
Indeed.

IIRC, haven't GM-USA effectively nicked the Holden platform/design for many of its resurgent and now successful Caddy & Chevy performance models....such as the Camaro etc...??
Only for a previous generation Camaro. The past two generations have been on a different platform.

GTEYE

2,092 posts

209 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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I had a quick whizz to the Holden website to see what they sell these days...some of which looks rather familiar

Astra - the same as ours with Holden badges - I wonder if they're shipped from Ellesmere Port?

Commodore - the same as our Insignia - presumable shipped from a European factory

Trax - looks like a slightly rehashed Mokka

The rest look like they're derived from US GM products- the Corvette and some generic looking SUV's.

I suspect a significant part of the reason for this is the sale of Opel/Vauxhall to PSA - and hence GM probably had a short term supply arrangement post sale - but nothing RHD longer term to replace them with.




JxJ Jr.

652 posts

69 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
Gareth9702 said:
aeropilot said:
Kawasicki said:
Both local Holden and Ford developed products were more sophisticated than their mainstream competition European and USA equivalents.
Indeed.

IIRC, haven't GM-USA effectively nicked the Holden platform/design for many of its resurgent and now successful Caddy & Chevy performance models....such as the Camaro etc...??
Only for a previous generation Camaro. The past two generations have been on a different platform.
But choice of platform for the Camaro, etc. would have been more a reflection of what's available within the global platform portfolio, the business case for the vehicle/s and corporate politics as much, if not more than, any perceived sophistication or otherwise.

In fairness to GM this is not all of their own making, there's a lot of other Australian factors that led to this and perhaps they could have done something more years ago, but that could also have led to their demise years ago.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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Commodore aside they were selling rehashed Daewoo's (barina/barina spark, Mokka, Craptiva, Cruze) for years. Even back in 2010 when I lived out there a friend bought a brand new Barina that turned out to be a rebadged Chevrolet Aveo (Daewoo something or other)

It seems that all they made for many years was a badge to stick on somewhat inferior products trading on patriotism and Aussie pride and the glory days of yesteryear. Customers got wise and stopped buying them.

The Commodore, Senators etc were brilliant vehicles and felt pretty well screwed together. Such a shame the powers that be thought sticking the badge on a FWD insignia would be an adequate replacement. We had a pool Commodore at work and it was a brilliant thing, We also had a pool Captiva and it was dreadful.

Despite the above mistakes and the fact most of their range were/are utter ste it's a crying shame but it seems Holden died when they axed the commodore.

Burwood

18,709 posts

245 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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There isn't any local (Australian) car assembly. Holdens decision was made at least 5 years ago, 2013-4 i recall. The big factors are:

No SUV
Reliance on big relatively inefficient engines. I'm not bashing them. Lot's of fun for the money but it's very niche
Small domestic market


BricktopST205

887 posts

133 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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CDB1983 said:
Commodore aside they were selling rehashed Daewoo's (barina/barina spark, Mokka, Craptiva, Cruze) for years. Even back in 2010 when I lived out there a friend bought a brand new Barina that turned out to be a rebadged Chevrolet Aveo (Daewoo something or other)

It seems that all they made for many years was a badge to stick on somewhat inferior products trading on patriotism and Aussie pride and the glory days of yesteryear. Customers got wise and stopped buying them.

The Commodore, Senators etc were brilliant vehicles and felt pretty well screwed together. Such a shame the powers that be thought sticking the badge on a FWD insignia would be an adequate replacement. We had a pool Commodore at work and it was a brilliant thing, We also had a pool Captiva and it was dreadful.

Despite the above mistakes and the fact most of their range were/are utter ste it's a crying shame but it seems Holden died when they axed the commodore.
They have always been like that. My brother had a Holden Asrta which was a rebadged Nissan Sunny!

It was only the Ute's and Falcon/commodore that was unique to Australians. Ford is now pretty much the same as they have dropped the Falcon as well.


Edited by BricktopST205 on Monday 17th February 13:41

IanJ9375

1,467 posts

215 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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Seems odd that they never tried to sell it along with Opel/Vauxhall to PSA - it might not have meant the Ute's etc kept flowing but it would have allowed the Brand to continue and PSA could have improved market share via the current badging model that's working for them in Europe?

GM had nothing to lose seeing as they are exiting the market as far as I can see?

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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If you're asking questions in this thread and / or if your posts are being corrected by others, consider taking the following quiz.

Impromptu Quiz
Goodbye Holden

1. In the following video, what is happening?
https://youtu.be/mvWbO_mIpn4

2. What, it is claimed, did Mark Reuss do four times?

3. In 2007 there were four manufacturers of mass-market cars in Australia. How many were there 10 years later?

4. General Motors is not exiting the Australian market. Name the brand that will be its primary focus of cooperation Down Under.

5. Of the world's major car-producing countries, which is ranked as most prepared for autonomous vehicles?



andyalan10

402 posts

136 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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[quote=unsprung]

If you're asking questions in this thread and / or if your posts are being corrected by others, consider taking the following quiz.

Impromptu Quiz

Impromptu quiz 2

Why are 2 of your points not questions?

Contrary to a poster above, I took it as meaning that GM will not be bothering with "fragmented RHD markets". So what was once the world's largest car manufacturer no longer has the ability to compete in the whole of Europe, or India, Japan and various other markets. Perhaps they should rename themselves "Specific Motors".

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all



andyalan10 said:
quote=unsprung]

If you're asking questions in this thread and / or if your posts are being corrected by others, consider taking the following quiz.

Impromptu Quiz

Impromptu quiz 2

Why are 2 of your points not questions?
So you've not taken a quiz before. Or, apparently, formatted a forum response. That's okay. We can try to help you with each.

andyalan10 said:
Contrary to a poster above, I took it as meaning that GM will not be bothering with "fragmented RHD markets".
It appears, then, that you took it incorrectly. See number 4 on the quiz.

andyalan10 said:
So what was once the world's largest car manufacturer no longer has the ability to compete in the whole of Europe, or India, Japan and various other markets. Perhaps they should rename themselves "Specific Motors".
See number 5 on the quiz.



captain_cynic

11,876 posts

94 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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Rawwr said:
Krikkit said:
If that's true they would've out-sold the other products...
Not necessarily. I suspect most car sales are dictated by fashion rather than any other measure. Take the UK for example, do people really consider what's 'better' - even for their own needs - before deciding on white, diesel, German vehicle in style #372? I personally suspect not.
The Falcodore was definitely nowhere near as sophisticated as European cars, they were essentially American cars but nowhere as cheap.

GM tried to sell the Commodore in the UK as a Vauxhall and in the US as a Pontiac, they weren't as nice to drive or sit in as a 3 series or C class, so they didn't sell in Europe. They weren't as cheap as Mustangs/Camaros so no-one bought them their either. It also didn't help that the engines were horrible American lumps that weren't powerful or fuel efficient. The base model with the 3 or 3.5L GM HFV6 couldn't outperform a 320i to save it's life and were even more dull to drive. Even the V8 produced a paltry 270 KW, yes less than 400 bhp from a 6L V8.

Australia did export a car in the last 2 decades in some volume... It was the Toyota Camry. Australian built examples were exported mainly to the middle east.

The writing has been on the wall for Holden for a while now, since GM offloaded it's European operations to PSA it was clear that GM isn't caring about markets outside of North America, the problem is no-one is willing to buy Holden. Not that it matters, nothing of value has been lost. As has been noted, they've been mainly selling crappy Daewoo cars for the last decade. It didn't help that GM made a failed venture to split off European made GM's under the Opel brand in the mid 2010s, taking the Astra out of the Holden range and re-badging it as an Opel. That didn't even last a year before the plug was pulled on Opel in Oz.

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all



captain_cynic said:
since GM offloaded it's European operations to PSA it was clear that GM isn't caring about markets outside of North America,
Adding to what you're saying, if I may:

"GM, the second biggest international automaker in China by sales, sold 3.64 million units in China [in 2018]."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gm-china/gms-th...


PokiGTA

86 posts

189 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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As an Australian, i feel like i have a little bit of skin in the game. Also as an Australian, i'm not that unhappy about expressing my opinion when it comes to cars or about you soap dodger types.

The Holden/Ford Marque has been in decline for about 20 years ever since the Corolla and Mazda 3 have been the biggest selling cars in Aus. The problem was that Holden and Ford Australia didnt change to compete with the requests of the market. They didnt have a local Astra or small family hatch to go toe-to-toe with the Toyota and Mazda. They had imported Opels and then Daewoos that were far inferior to their Japanese rivals.

Secondly, What they should have done is taken the standard Commodore or Falcon and shrink them around 20-25%, put smaller engines in and sell them in Europe as an option to the A6, E class and 5/7 series. Holden could have asked HSV to make a new Opel/Vauxhall Carlton with a sleeved, supercharged LS3, say around 4-5ltrs, manual gearbox and an LSD in in the rear. They would have sold out on name alone. The Falcon could have done the same. The Barra 4ltr turbo was a brilliant engine despite being a bit of a boat anchor. Not to mention that Ford had access to the AJD turbo diesel V6 that was in the Jag at the time. How many 3ltr TDs with RWD are in Europe? stacks. And undercutting the Germans without compromising the handling and giving a halfway position in luxury would have been very well received. Not to mention a turbo straight 6 with the ability to put out big BHP in a RWD package exactly like the aforementioned Lotus Carlton.

as it happened tho, GM didn't evolve. They took Aussie taxpayers money and propped up the US market. Removed the locally made donkey and imported the Insignia which was still a very good car but because it wasn't the 'Aussie big 6'(with a V8 option), the media and locals didn't buy it. Hilarious as the market hadn't wanted a V8 sedan in high numbers since the mid 90s.

Had GM given a hoot about the Aus domestic market, they would have evolved. They didn't and now Holden is no more, when it could have been still viable and making cars that people would actually buy.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
Krikkit said:
Kawasicki said:
Hames Junt said:
No-one cares, could see this happening years ago, yet Australians, as very adolescent people, worshipped at the altar of unsophistication... still do.
Not actually true.

Both local Holden and Ford developed products were more sophisticated than their mainstream competition European and USA equivalents.
If that's true they would've out-sold the other products...
Its not true, even despite the steps Oz took to protect its market.

Feel sorry for the staff at the dealerships etc, the Christchurch one just had a major refit too (and built in the last few years but thats true of pretty much everything in the city..).

CDP

7,454 posts

253 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
I wonder how long before they pull out of LHD markets too?

That way they can concentrate on their core business: Healthcare and pensions...

andyalan10

402 posts

136 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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unsprung said:
So you've not taken a quiz before. Or, apparently, formatted a forum response. That's okay. We can try to help you with each.
Mea Culpa. Trying to be too quick with my smart arse response.

andyalan10 said:
Contrary to a poster above, I took it as meaning that GM will not be bothering with "fragmented RHD markets".
unsprung said:
It appears, then, that you took it incorrectly. See number 4 on the quiz.
Me and MSN "General Motors scraps Holden division, exits right-hand drive markets"

As for question 4, I've seen it, but I have no idea what " primary focus of cooperation" means, and google is not helping.

Is that better?

Andy

unsprung

5,467 posts

123 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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captain_cynic said:
They weren't as cheap as Mustangs/Camaros so no-one bought them their either.
Sorry, but no. The main reason is that Mustang and Camaro buyers tend not to cross-shop a four-door saloon. Especially one that quite convincingly adopted the innocuous egg-shaped body style designed Down Under.


captain_cynic said:
It also didn't help that the engines were horrible American lumps that weren't powerful or fuel efficient.
The units rebadged for the US market as Pontiac and Chevrolet eventually received an LS3 with 415hp / 415 lb-ft. 0 to 60 mph in 4.5 seconds. 10 years ago and older. Those facts are different to the claims you make.







Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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captain_cynic said:
The Falcodore was definitely nowhere near as sophisticated as European cars, they were essentially American cars but nowhere as cheap.
Both cars were developed by extremely experienced Australian based engineering teams.

I can speak for the Ford team as I worked on the FG Falcon project. There was pretty much no USA involvement. So to say they were “essentially American” is wrong. From driving feel, they were much, much closer to European cars.

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
Holden Colorado was the 4th best selling vehicle in NZ, once you remove the rental/fleet sales, and the 6th if you include it.

The police are contracted to use Holden too.

Will have a fair impact in NZ.

Jimmy Recard

17,540 posts

178 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
PokiGTA said:
Secondly, What they should have done is taken the standard Commodore or Falcon and shrink them around 20-25%, put smaller engines in and sell them in Europe as an option to the A6, E class and 5/7 series. Holden could have asked HSV to make a new Opel/Vauxhall Carlton with a sleeved, supercharged LS3, say around 4-5ltrs, manual gearbox and an LSD in in the rear. They would have sold out on name alone. The Falcon could have done the same. The Barra 4ltr turbo was a brilliant engine despite being a bit of a boat anchor. Not to mention that Ford had access to the AJD turbo diesel V6 that was in the Jag at the time. How many 3ltr TDs with RWD are in Europe? stacks. And undercutting the Germans without compromising the handling and giving a halfway position in luxury would have been very well received.
!?!?

What do you think the Ford Granada and Vauxhall Omega were? They were both good cars that couldn't compete because they didn't have an Audi, BMW or Mercedes badge. The Omega was even available with a BMW diesel straight six. The Vectra C was available with a 3 litre diesel V6 and didn't sell in massive numbers with that engine.

Europe would've had absolutely bugger all interest in Falcons and Commodores, especially with the availability of the Mondeo and Vectra/Insignia already